Author Topic: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?  (Read 29265 times)

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1302
Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« on: May 26, 2013, 12:23:33 AM »
Is this true?

Quote
...the neighbouring states, Arkansas and Texas, actually ban atheists from holding any public office. Arkansas goes even further, and says atheists can't testify as witnesses in court.

From: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-25/freedom-to-worship-and-the-freedom-to-not/4713420

 :o
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

I'm a member of Lids4Kids - rescuing plastic for the planet.

Offline Philthy

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2013, 02:47:24 AM »
Not that I'm aware of, Louisiana and Texas are very south from me. But I really doubt it because of the discrimination laws.

There used to be an ad on TV that said "Texas.......it's like a whole other country."
They ain't kidding.

Phil
The capacity of conspiracy theorists to deny science and hand-wave away evidence is infinite, as is their level of stupid. -- Smartcooky

Offline ka9q

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3014
Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2013, 07:55:42 AM »
Many state-level laws and even constitutional provisions like that are still on the books. The US Supreme Court might have held them unconstitutional under the federal constitution decades ago, and they could never be enforced, but they don't automatically disappear until the state legislatures do garbage collection.
 

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2013, 11:54:21 AM »
And they are definitely unconstitutional.  We're not even talking First Amendment, here; it's in the original text.  From Article Six:

Quote
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Of course, as we all know, "the Constitution says no" doesn't stop people from passing certain laws anyway, and it's only when they're challenged that anything is done about it.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1302
Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2013, 01:11:31 PM »
Well that's better - it certainly wasn't explained that way in the article I linked in the OP.
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

I'm a member of Lids4Kids - rescuing plastic for the planet.

Offline Glom

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1102
Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2013, 01:56:33 PM »
The one thing that's interesting though is the mentality of the extremist.

There it is in the Constitution but there will be religious fundamentalists who will swear to God that it is un-American to allow a non-believer to hold office.

Never underestimate the capability of an extremist to see what he wants to see regardless of how blatant the reverse is.

Naturally, this applies to extremists of all forms.

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2013, 02:27:50 PM »
Well that's better - it certainly wasn't explained that way in the article I linked in the OP.

I'm sure it isn't.  Article Six isn't brought up a lot, and failing to mention it makes the entire US look stupid, not just the people who passed those laws.  And if you look, there are literally dozens of laws I could list which were either proposed or passed after a Supreme Court ruling that the law in question was unconstitutional.  It's as if certain people think, "Well, they didn't really mean it!"
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline Echnaton

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1490
Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2013, 10:33:17 PM »
No it is not true.  Atheist in Texas are not prevented from holding public office.  Only it can be difficult in many jurisdictions to get elected or appointed.  The Mayor of Houston is an open lesbian, and quite likely an atheist.  At least she has never made an issue of a religious affiliation.  But Houston is a rarity on both counts in the very conservative Texas.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2013, 12:16:43 AM »
Atheists actually successfully gaining public office in the US are rare in any state.  It's easier if you at least pay lip service to the idea of Christianity than hold any alternative religious belief, from Judaism to Islam to Hinduism to atheism.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline qt

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 48
Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2013, 01:23:31 AM »
The Wikipedia page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists

states "In the United States, six state constitutions officially include religious tests that would effectively prevent atheists from holding public office", and then goes on to list the relevant text from not six, but seven state constitutions (and then another one which is worded a bit differently).  In some cases, the wording would seem to apply to specific types of religious beliefs - for example, in North Carolina, if you believe in a deity who is not "Almighty", you might have a problem.  Not clear to me whether polytheists would be acceptable.

Regarding enforceability, I am not a lawyer, and I don't know the US system that well, so my comments below should be taken to be about as valid as "heard in a tavern" conversation.  But, prior to 1866 or 1868, I think these sorts of laws would have been perfectly enforceable, since they are state rather than federal.  But, an act passed in 1866, and the fourteenth amendment passed in 1868, seem like they would make these provisions of the state constitutions contrary to the federal constitution, and therefore invalid.

So if someone won a public office and was then prevented from assuming that office on grounds of atheism, I expect a court challenge would be successful.  Whether that challenge would actually succeed before the term of office had expired is another question.



Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1302
Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2013, 09:19:28 PM »
Atheists actually successfully gaining public office in the US are rare in any state.  It's easier if you at least pay lip service to the idea of Christianity than hold any alternative religious belief, from Judaism to Islam to Hinduism to atheism.

This is the thing that fascinates me, when comparing American secularism with Australian secularism.

The people who wrote the Australian Constitution in the 1890s were obviously influenced by the British system of government (which had already been adopted in the colonies - now states). But they also consciously copied aspects of the American Constitution. So our two houses of Parliament are the House of Representatives and the Senate, with seats in the House allocated in proportion to population and seats in the Senate allocated at a fixed number per state (currently 12 per state and 2 per territory). But the constitution also prevents Parliament from establishing a state religion, prevents the imposition of religious observances, and prohibits limits on the free exercise of religion.

So the first Australian-born Governor General (after a series of British appointees) was the Jewish Sir Isaac Isaacs, our current Prime Minister is an unmarried atheist woman, and the current Finance Minister is an openly lesbian mother.

ETA1: I don't know how many of you saw the story which popped up shortly after Obama won the last election: a young woman, unhappy with the election result, announced on Twitter that she was moving to Australia because "their president is a Christian and actually supports what he says". So she managed to get a trifecta of wrong, which mightily amused a lot of Australians.

ETA2: I know that when trying to explain why Americans are so religious when compared with people from countries in northern Europe, a lot of people point to the fact that the northern European countries have state religions while the USA doesn't. They propose that the American lack of government support for, or endorsement of, one particular church leads to a religious free market which forces churches to compete with each other to attract congregations.

But this argument doesn't explain Australia - like the USA we don't have a state church, but like northern Europeans we just aren't very religious. I suspect the explanation lies in the fact that in Australia and in northern European countries governments provide a generous social security system, thus greatly reducing a major reason churches exist - to provide charity.

Certainly churches dominate the charity sector, but to a large extent their role is limited to people on the margins of society. But because so much charity comes from the government in the first place, when governments cut back on social welfare and churches pick up the slack, I don't get the impression that church attendance increases. In other words, churches aren't really able to turn recipients of their charity into members of their church.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 10:01:15 PM by Peter B »
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

I'm a member of Lids4Kids - rescuing plastic for the planet.

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2013, 11:03:28 PM »
Look, it took me quite some time to write a post explaining American gun culture to someone who asked me; I'm not sure I can manage to explain American religious culture just now.  But there is a lot of history involved there in ways that I don't think Australia or even Canada have.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline smartcooky

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1967
Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 12:11:51 AM »
Look, it took me quite some time to write a post explaining American gun culture to someone who asked me; I'm not sure I can manage to explain American religious culture just now.  But there is a lot of history involved there in ways that I don't think Australia or even Canada have.

One of the best explanations of American Gun Culture I have seen is this...

WARNING: THIS MIGHT OFFEND SOME PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY NRA MEMBERS





If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 01:04:42 AM »
My explanation had a lot more historical data points, though I admit it also referenced Davy Crockett. 
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline Glom

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1102
Re: Re: Atheists can't hold public office, can't testify?
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 03:00:47 AM »
ETA1: I don't know how many of you saw the story which popped up shortly after Obama won the last election: a young woman, unhappy with the election result, announced on Twitter that she was moving to Australia because "their president is a Christian and actually supports what he says". So she managed to get a trifecta of wrong, which mightily amused a lot of Australians.

Maybe she confused Australia with New Zealand, the Devil's Australia.