Author Topic: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.  (Read 74622 times)

Offline Allan F

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Re: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.
« Reply #105 on: November 12, 2013, 05:52:06 PM »
How does Hunchy, with all his claimed brilliance, miss these small basic things?

Deliberatly, I think.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.
« Reply #106 on: November 12, 2013, 07:07:16 PM »
How does Hunchy, with all his claimed brilliance, miss these small basic things?

Hence why I can't accept that he's an engineer of any kind.

And in one sense these are small basic things.  But in another sense they're the whole enchilada.  They express a fundamentally different way of conceptualizing the spacecraft dynamic control problem than what a layman would probably envision intuitively, even a smart one.

After building a few actual spacecraft, you learn there is no optimal RCS placement.  Further, other design constraints may disallow placing RCS jets where even a marginally optimal solution suggests.  You quickly learn that a completely generalized vector solution (i.e., a linear algebra system) is the only way to keep from having to solve this problem minute-by-minute, spacecraft-by-spacecraft.  Once you invoke this mathemagical world, you realize that you pretty much just solved every spacecraft dynamics problem, because they just become parameterized versions of the general solution.  Yet the result and method are often inscrutable to the layman.  The layman is still stuck on getting everything lined up perfectly to simplify the piecewise solution.  Without that alignment, the piecewise solution grows into unmanageable complexity.

Most people intuitively understand inertia and momentum.  That is, they know that the product of mass and velocity results in a quantity that has a real-world measurable value.  An unladen shopping cart (trolley) hitting your ankles at high speed causes pain of the same approximate magnitude as a heavy-laden one hitting at slow speeds.

From this we can introduce the moment of inertia, which is its rotational equivalent.  The product of mass and velocity is still salient, but velocity in this case is how fast it's spinning.  But then we realize that it depends which way we rotate.  Things that are long and thin rotate more easily about one axis than the other.  It complicates the reckoning of dynamic stability and control, so when playing Quidditch, the broom perhaps rolls more easily than it pitches or yaws.

The mathematically disinclined reader starts to get a headache at this point.  But we again invoke linear algebra.  This misnamed branch of math, among its many uses, has the practical use here summed up by:  "It's a way to reason in general about several directions at once."  In this world, instead of thinking about the three cardinal directions (roll, pitch, and yaw), we think about all conceivable directions simultaneously by expressing them as rotations relative to roll, pitch, and yaw.  You don't have to understand this.  But what comes out of this is that moment of inertia, in real-life spacecraft control, is a matrix, not a formula.  Nine numbers, properly specified, give the moment of inertia of any body, in any axis.  Or in more direct terms -- of every spacecraft that could ever be built, anywhere, by anyone.

Once you start expressing the problems and solutions in linear algebra terms, basic concepts like moment of inertia and RCS control inputs share the same visual appearance:  that 3x3 matrix.  And so do complex topics, like damping the effect of fuel slosh in the tanks.  It's all the same stuff.  Relatively advanced mathematics, but a very elegant solution.

Then when you realize that linear algebra doesn't require your reference axes and control axes to be strictly orthogonal (i.e., all at right angles to each other), you achieve another step in the generality of the solution.

And this straightforward (while admittedly math-heavy) progression from basic concepts to a fully generalized solution is what gives us the lunar module.  The LM had non-orthogonal control axes, and shared a property with the CSM that it could operate with various individual RCS jets disabled.  The layman, who is thinking of firing certain specific control jets to, for example, correct a roll error, shudders in horror at what he'd do if those individual jets weren't available.  The engineer, with the generalized solution painstakingly achieved through analysis and theory, sits back and says smugly, "Hey, no problem."  To the layman it looks like magic.  It isn't; it's just math.  But the ability to comprehend this kind of physics solution (or, at the limit, that such a solution is theoretically possible) is the kind of thing that separates engineers from non-engineers.  Not as a value judgment, but as a qualitative difference in the mode of thought.
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Offline ka9q

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Re: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.
« Reply #107 on: November 12, 2013, 08:25:31 PM »
First of all, the conceptual control axes for the LM were not orthogonal, as was the case in the other spacecraft.
How so? The thrusters certainly appear to be orthogonal to each other, although yesterday I noticed in a drawing (you know, the ones that don't exist) that the ascent engine appears to be rotated slightly forward (i.e., producing a component of thrust in the +Z direction). I also noticed that the c.g. of the Apollo 11 LM at lunar liftoff was at Z=+2.9 inches and moved forward to Z=+5.3 inches at insertion. These two facts are probably not unrelated.

I did read that the computer used control axes rotated 45 degrees around the X axis. But this was just to simplify the software by aligning them with the RCS thruster quads on the corners of the ascent stage. The axes were still orthogonal with each other.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.
« Reply #108 on: November 12, 2013, 08:37:49 PM »
Third, the RCS system provides control moments.  The jets do not fire continuously during powered flight.  The spacecraft, as all spacecraft do, wanders around its deadband until a control moment is required.
I know what deadbands are, but let me make sure I understand why they're used.

If the RCS thrusters could be throttled, or if they could be efficiently fired for arbitrarily short intervals so they could be pulse modulated as if throttled, then the guidance system could fire them continuously at whatever thrust is needed to keep the stage dynamically balanced. You wouldn't need an attitude deadband.

But real thrusters take time to open the valves and further time for fuel and oxidizer to flow, contact and ignite.  Before ignition, some unreacted propellant is expelled. The shorter the burn, the more of the total propellant is wasted. So you want to fire the thrusters for longer periods, which means firing them less often. And that means having to tolerate some attitude error.

A secondary reason for a deadband is that the c.g. may dynamically move during flight, e.g., as propellants slosh in their tanks. (Crew movement is another possibility but they're strapped in place.) Trying to hold attitude tightly against these small movements means firing opposing engines and wasting propellant. It's better to just relax and tolerate the error.

I presume the optimum deadband can be computed from the loss in effective thrust that comes from a particular attitude error. This varies as the cosine of the error, which for small angles is approximately 1 -- i.e., small errors are inconsequential. So the optimum deadband would be the one that equates the RCS propellant needed to maintain it with the wasted propellant by the main engine due to those cosine errors.

Am I right?

Offline ka9q

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Re: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.
« Reply #109 on: November 12, 2013, 08:43:48 PM »
In connection with Hunchbacked's refusal to accept that the LM design engineers actually knew what they were doing, he continues to insist that the zig-zag motion of the LM as seen from the LRV camera on Apollo 17 was caused by the LM correcting for its seriously off-balance design!

I keep trying to explain, to no avail, how the camera had two drive motors that ran at a constant speed that did not match the apparent speed of the LM. The operator had to repeatedly start and stop them to keep the LM within the field of view, and this resulted in the apparent triangular motion of the LM on the screen (he calls it "sinusoidal"). He even notes that the apparent oscillations of the LM are vertical rather than horizontal as he'd expect from attitude oscillations, but even this doesn't tell him that he needs to reconsider his basic premise.

Amazing.

Offline raven

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Re: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.
« Reply #110 on: November 12, 2013, 09:00:59 PM »
I guess when on old Star Trek they do a lean and camera tilt, he thinks they tilt the whole set.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.
« Reply #111 on: November 12, 2013, 09:03:23 PM »
Even though the chairs never move. That's the part I like.

Offline gillianren

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Re: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.
« Reply #112 on: November 12, 2013, 09:09:42 PM »
I believe they did, by TNG, because they could by then afford a tilting set.
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Offline raven

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Re: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.
« Reply #113 on: November 12, 2013, 09:27:51 PM »
I believe they did, by TNG, because they could by then afford a tilting set.
I think even then. Galaxy Quest *did* use gimbals when on the 'real' Protector though.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.
« Reply #114 on: November 13, 2013, 12:50:22 AM »
I believe they did, by TNG, because they could by then afford a tilting set.

The only ST productions of any kind, movie or TV, that used a physically tilting bridge set were The Undiscovered Country and  Nemesis. In all the others, camera tilt was used, and the lurching movements were made by the actors.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 12:55:47 AM by smartcooky »
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.
« Reply #115 on: November 13, 2013, 01:20:14 AM »
In all the others, camera tilt was used, and the lurching movements were made by the actors.
Right. That's what made it so great. While the actors are trying to lurch and roll in unison, the chairs just stand there even though they're unattached to the floor, unless one of the actors knocks it over.

And then we have Dr. McCoy's extensive glass display cases in sick bay featuring skulls, liquor bottles and such. And none ever budge, even when the ship is under heavy attack by phasers and photon torpedoes.

Obviously whatever machine they use to cancel the subjective effects of accelerating to several times the speed of light in a few seconds also cancels brief accelerations due to nearby explosions -- but only for inanimate objects, not people. Unless it's necessary for the plot of course.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.
« Reply #116 on: November 13, 2013, 03:04:20 AM »
And then we have Dr. McCoy's extensive glass display cases in sick bay featuring skulls, liquor bottles and such. And none ever budge, even when the ship is under heavy attack by phasers and photon torpedoes.

Whaddya mean glass!!!? They were made of transparent aluminium!!!
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Trebor

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Re: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.
« Reply #117 on: November 13, 2013, 09:47:09 AM »
How does Hunchy, with all his claimed brilliance, miss these small basic things?
In his first video he put up he presented the Apollo 8 'earthrise' photos and proudly proclaimed that they could not have been taken from the surface of the Moon.
I wish I had saved that one.... he took it down fairly quickly.

Offline raven

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Re: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.
« Reply #118 on: November 13, 2013, 10:54:08 AM »
In his first video he put up he presented the Apollo 8 'earthrise' photos and proudly proclaimed that they could not have been taken from the surface of the Moon.
I wish I had saved that one.... he took it down fairly quickly.
Apparently he does have a sense of shame then.

Offline dwight

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Re: Hunchback's major (mis)understanding of Apollo TV tech.
« Reply #119 on: November 13, 2013, 10:57:11 AM »
It's maybe worthwhile asking him about that video, as he'll loose credibility real fast with the fence sitters. Similar to the Aldrin/underwater video (of which a reference copy still exists) he quickly removes things that raise the ire of his teammates.
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