Author Topic: Apollo 13  (Read 176201 times)

Offline Allan F

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #345 on: October 23, 2013, 06:20:08 PM »
The maximum temperature of the surface of the Moon is not 250 C, but around 110-115 C. The other number is a musunderstanding - it's about the same temperature in Farenheit.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #346 on: October 23, 2013, 06:55:01 PM »
It may have turned out to be accurate, but for me it was still a little guesswork.  From what you said, am I correct in thinking that (if we assume that the max temp of the lunar surface is 250o C), once the surface reaches that temperature, it's radiating all the energy that strikes it?  With some probably fairly small loss to conduction to the lower layers?
The lunar surface doesn't get quite that hot. It gets to a little over +100C on the equator at local noon, hot enough to still cause problems.

The surface always radiates all the energy that strikes it, either at the same wavelength (i.e., reflection) or by re-radiation at longer wavelengths you can't see. Conditions on the moon change slowly enough (the sun moves at only 0.5 degrees/hr, vs 15/hr for the earth) and the loose, well-insulated surface layer has so little thermal inertia, that it's always in near-perfect equilibrium. The sun's intensity is constant but the heat input varies as the sine of the sun's elevation angle.

But when an object is not in equilibrium, the imbalance goes to heating or cooling it, yes.

The Apollo heat flow experiments showed that the surface has very poor heat conductivity (it's a loose powder, remember) and you only have to go about a meter down before the temperature is nearly constant throughout the month. The moon has some internal heat from radioactive decay that still comes out but it's tiny relative to the solar fluxes.

You control the temperature of a spacecraft both actively (with heaters, coolers, etc) and passively, by selecting the absorptivity (a) and emissivity (e) of its surface coatings. To stay cool in sunlight, you want a low absorptivity (looks light in visible/near IR) so it reflects most of the sunlight and a high emissivity (looks dark in far IR) so it efficiently radiates its own heat. Examples of materials with low a/e ratios are aluminized Kapton, Teflon or Mylar with the aluminum on the rear surface (e.g., the blankets on the LM). To collect heat you want something with a high a/e, e.g., polished gold.

But there's a catch: high emissivity also means that it absorbs very well in far IR. Doesn't the sun also radiate a lot there? Yes, but it's so hot (6000 K) that it radiates far more in the visible/near-IR. And because it occupies a very small fraction of the sky at 1 AU, we can pretty much ignore the sun's longwave IR.

But the moon appears quite big to someone standing on it, so it hits you with a lot of longwave IR at local noon. You'd reach its temperature if you were in thermal equilbrium with it, so this is a real problem. Apollo avoided this problem by arriving shortly after sunrise and leaving well before noon, but the ALSEP experiments had to deal with it.

Why does the moon get so much hotter than the earth at local noon, given the same amount of sunlight? Because the moon lacks an atmosphere to redistribute heat. This also provides our solution: just hide from the lunar surface behind a reflector so we see only the sky. Even with the sun in that sky we can stay cool with a low a/e. If you look at the ALSEP experiments, particularly the central stations, you'll see reflectors doing exactly this. Some experiments overheated because the astronauts could not keep those reflectors clean.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 07:00:09 PM by ka9q »

Offline raven

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #347 on: October 23, 2013, 07:02:56 PM »
You could also bury yourself and have the dual advantage of radiation protection.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #348 on: October 23, 2013, 07:08:00 PM »
You could also bury yourself and have the dual advantage of radiation protection.
Yes you could, but you then have to get rid of your own waste heat.

The moon is fairly cool below the surface (I don't remember the temperature offhand) so depending on its conductivity you might just dump it into the regolith with something like a geothermal heat pump. Or you could build radiators above the surface, being careful to keep their active surfaces from seeing the surface. That includes any surrounding mountains, which caused some of the Apollo 15 experiments to run hot.

The one option completely out of the question is the one Apollo used: sublimating water to vacuum. I can't think of a more wasteful use of an extremely precious resource...


Offline raven

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #349 on: October 23, 2013, 07:17:40 PM »
You could have pipes with the working fluid, perhaps in Thermos style insulation, lead up to radiators on the surface.
By this source, at the equator, the subsurface temperature is quite friendly.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #350 on: October 23, 2013, 07:28:38 PM »
The working fluid could easily be water. Drop the pressure sufficiently and it will boil below room temperature. Don't let the pressure drop to zero, and it won't freeze. Pipe the water vapor to the radiator and let it condense back to liquid.

Make the radiators much bigger and add some solar collectors and you could generate quite a bit of solar thermal power.

I think some large commercial HVAC chillers, like the one at my company's building, use water as the working fluid. Because they don't have a radiator looking at deep space, they dissolve LiBr in the water and drive an absorption cycle with waste heat from electric generators fueled with natural gas.

Offline raven

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #351 on: October 23, 2013, 07:32:25 PM »
Well, vacuum is certainly not something that is in small supply on the moon, which is why I suggested Thermos style insulation.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #352 on: October 23, 2013, 07:34:33 PM »
Yeah, just aluminize the pipes and your problem is solved.

Didn't Arthur C Clarke write an essay about there being so much vacuum in space that it could be mined and brought back to earth?

Offline raven

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #353 on: October 23, 2013, 07:53:11 PM »
Yeah, just aluminize the pipes and your problem is solved.

Didn't Arthur C Clarke write an essay about there being so much vacuum in space that it could be mined and brought back to earth?
Heh, wouldn't surprise me. In a world, like so much of the golden age science fiction, where space travel is cheap but electronics never got past the vacuum tube, it might not be a bad idea.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #354 on: October 23, 2013, 08:54:28 PM »
Yeah, just aluminize the pipes and your problem is solved.

Didn't Arthur C Clarke write an essay about there being so much vacuum in space that it could be mined and brought back to earth?


Wasn't that Asimov and water (The Martian Way and Other Stories) ?


ETA: Perhaps you are thinking of mining the quantum vacuum, and Clarke's warning of the risks!
Quote
There's a fuel supply that is costless, unlimited and that gives off no pollution at all when you use it. There's just one minor problem. When you try to use it, you may accidentally blow up part of the Universe.

It will be over before anyone can say `sorry'. In a laboratory somewhere, someone tries to get hold of a weird and completely new, exotic type of energy. But boy, the experiment goes out of hand. Suddenly, there's a BIG explosion. And then there's nothing -- our planet, the sun, all planets in our solar system and even some stars surrounding our solar system have been blown to smithereens.

And explaining what went wrong isn't even simple. We're talking quantum physics here: the physics of the vanishingly small building blocks that make up all matter in the Universe.

In quantum physics, everything is totally different from daily life. Quantum particles can be in two places at the same time, and can behave both like waves and particles. In fact, when you hear a quantum physicist say `particles', don't think of little, round balls. Quantum `particles' are better compared with tones of music: they're definitely there, but you can't see them or catch them.

One of the most mind-boggling properties of quantum particles is that they come into existence out of nowhere. Suck every molecule of air out of a bottle, making it completely vacuum -- and quantum particles will still be there. They pop up in pairs out of nowhere. And within a tiny fraction of a second, they merge together and -- zzzip! -- they're gone.

It is precisely this odd `quantum vacuum' that may one day open the door to a very new source of energy. Suppose you're able to snatch some of those out-of-nowhere particles away. Admittedly, you'll have to be REALLY fast. But if you do succeed, you'll have harvested particles out of nowhere. And since matter and energy are basically the same stuff (according to Einstein's E=mc2), you'll have energy out of nowhere!

The advantages would be unimaginable. Here's an energy source that never runs out, is everywhere around, is extremely cheap, and causes no pollution whatsoever.

But then again, there is a small, but alarming risk. There may be simply energy too much. Mining the quantum vacuum might bring about an unstoppable chain reaction, releasing an ever increasing amount of energy. In fact, no-one knows how much energy will be released: calculations done by physicists give answers anywhere between zero and infinity.

Obviously, too much energy would mean trouble. The explosion could be huge enough to blow apart our entire solar system and everything around it. And of course, infinite energy would bring about infinite destruction, bombing not just a handful of stars, but everything in the entire Universe.

Gladly, no present-day scientist is capable of mining the quantum vacuum. On the other hand: one day, there will be. And that day may arrive sooner than you think: some estimate  around 2020 science will be ready. Let's hope physicists finally have their calculations straightened out by then.

So it's `wait and see'. And talking about `seeing': as the famous science-fiction writer Arthur C. Clarke once pointed out, whenever you see an unexplained burst of energy coming from the cosmos (and there are a lot of them), it may be some alien civilization, blowing itself to kingdom come while experimenting with the quantum vacuum...
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 09:09:12 PM by smartcooky »
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Kiwi

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #355 on: October 24, 2013, 05:17:22 AM »
He demands a "Janet and John" explanation from the 1960s, as you say, and has obviously planned to declare victory should we be unable to find exactly what he wants.  So narrowing his search and avoiding any sort of creative or analytical thought is part of the overall (and pretty ham-fisted) rhetorical ploy and is independent of his ability to understand the answers he's been given.

Allancw, a "Janet and John" type of explanation of a manned spacecraft's journey through the Van Allen belts would be hard to find in Nasa literature, but by going through what I have from the 1960s and 70s I found a little that was intended for public consumption:--

Quote
March 1964

"Footprints on the Moon", Hugh L. Dryden, Ph.D., Deputy Administrator, National Aeronautics and Space Administration.  National Geographic, Vol. 125, No. 3, March 1964, pages 356-401

Page 381:

Many problems and hazards exist for a lunar mission that are not encountered while orbiting the earth. Before I describe a voyage to the moon, as we now plan it, let's look at some of those possible pitfalls.

The Van Allen radiation belt, named for its discoverer, Dr. James A. Van Allen, must be traversed. It consists of charged particles expelled from the sun and trapped above the earth by our own planet's magnetic field.

Basically there is only one belt, but it includes two dissimilar regions. One consists of high-energy protons caught in a layer that arches some 2,000 miles above earth at the magnetic equator. The other, containing high-energy electrons, girdles the magnetic equator about 10,000 miles from earth. In schematic drawings these regions curve around the globe like horns or crescent moons. The second, in particular, is quite deep, extending outward some 20,000 miles.

Manned space flights to date have been too low to get into this radiation, but Apollo crewmen will have to slash through it going out and coming back. Fortunately they will be exposed for a total of only a few hours, and the estimated 20 roentgens of radiation they will absorb will not be serious from a health standpoint. Their spacecraft, of course, gives only limited protection; it cannot be sheathed in thick lead.


Apollo 8

"A Most Fantastic Voyage", Lt. Gen. Sam C. Phillips.  National Geographic, Vol. 135, No. 5, May 1969, pages 593-631

Page 604:

04:52:00 Houston, Apollo 8 with a PRD reading... At 4 hours 4 minutes commander is 0, CMP .64, LMP .02.

Translated, this means that Bill Anders is reporting on the readings of the personal radiation dosimeters worn by the commander, the command module pilot, (Lovell), and the lunar module pilot (Anders), after the crew have passed through the thickest portion of the Van Allen radiation belt. As expected, the readings are negligible. Total radiation on the entire flight turns out to be not much more than that of a chest X-ray.


Apollo 11

"The Invasion of the Moon 1969 - The Story of Apollo 11", Peter Ryan.  Penguin Books Ltd, Harmondsworth, Middlesex, England (1969) -- Paperback

Page 71:

GET 02:44 (5.16 p.m. BST)  Ignition at the start of the 5 minute 20 second burn of the J 2 engine which gradually increased Apollo's speed to 24,182 miles an hour, lifting it out of earth orbit towards the moon.  As the engine cut off, the craft was already 200 miles along its quarter-million-mile flight path.  A few moments later they passed through the Van Allen belts, but the dose of radiation they received was rather less than the dose a dentist uses to take an X-ray.


No doubt your investigative abilities will be able to verify that Dryden and Phillips were high up in the Nasa hierarchy.

Ryan's paperback book was on sale about October or November 1969 here in New Zealand, which was when I bought my first copy in Wellington. I didn't note the exact details of such things in those days.

One interesting point is that many of the books and magazine and newspaper articles of the time don't even mention the VABs because they simply weren't a big deal.  I hope you don't think they would "fry" anyone passing through, or that they are a "searing radiation hell."  If you do, you've been hoodwinked.

Just a few quick questions:

What sort of research have you done regarding the official stories about the moonlandings?

Have you, for instance, spent time at the Apollo Lunar Surface Journals and the Apollo Flight Journals? They are all available online.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/frame.html
http://history.nasa.gov/afj/

Are you familiar with all the Mercury and Gemini missions that led up to Apollo?

Do you know that two of the Gemini crews travelled into the Van Allen belts? And that the International Space Station also regularly passes through part of them?

Do you know what the various unmanned mission did as far as presenting information about space and the moon?

If, as you say, you believe in a moonlanding hoax, at what mission or missions do you believe Nasa started hoaxing?

Regarding the "hoax," have you spent a few hours at JayUtah's marvellous website, Clavius?  There you will find very detailed answers to most of the common hoax claims. http://www.clavius.org
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 05:24:46 AM by Kiwi »
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
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Offline gillianren

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #356 on: October 24, 2013, 11:59:11 AM »
"Janet and John"?
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline Allan F

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #357 on: October 24, 2013, 12:21:45 PM »
AKA Joe the Plumber or any ordinary interested citizen.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #358 on: October 24, 2013, 12:25:35 PM »
Equivalent to Dick and Jane.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #359 on: October 24, 2013, 12:43:07 PM »
Equivalent to Dick and Jane.

Or in other words, a simply-worded child's explanation.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams