HS2: approaches of those opposed to high speed rail in the UK

[Sharpeneer]

Hi there. Firstly, just to say that I have learned so much from this forum. I initially came looking when someone on an engineering group on LinkedIn raised doubts about the Apollo programme, and I wanted some sound information to see if I could get them to come to their senses...

Second. There is a big debate in the UK at the moment regarding a new phase in high speed rail known as High Speed 2. As a user of twitter - and someone who is a structural engineer - I have become increasingly dismayed about the approaches of a few people on the #HS2 tag. I think I am beginning to see some commonalities between the approach of some opponents of the HS2 scheme and those seen by many Apollo conspiracists.

If you have a really quiet half hour, have a look and let me know if I'm right - or talking rubbish...!

[darren r]

Hello Sharpeneer, welcome to the forum!

I'm in the UK too and, while I'm not against HS2 neccessarily, I don't feel the case for it has been proved. Personally, I think the money would be better spent on improving the whole rail network instead of shaving half an hour off the journey to London. That said (and to save me wading through all the comments on Twitter!), what kind of conspiracy is being proposed?

[Sharpeneer]

darren r,

I think as it is a live event, I am not sure that a full-blown conspiracy theory around HS2 has developed yet. However, some of the arguments around seem to have familiar traits. For example, I've spoken up as being in favour of the scheme - only to be accused of only holding that view because I must have some sort of vested interest.

It's an important debate, and we need to do many things to improve, upgrade and extend our infrastructure. Each option will be a balance of benefits and impacts, and so it is rightly a subject of discussion and variety of opinions. I am not saying that the situation is perfect, or that the pro-HS2 camp are always right about everything. However, it does not help when some on the anti-HS2 camp just make stuff up, selectively quote evidence out of context, don't answer questions, assume that as they don't understand how a railway works that their basic assumptions must be right, and so on and so forth.

[Echnaton]

However, some of the arguments around seem to have familiar traits. For example, I've spoken up as being in favour of the scheme - only to be accused of only holding that view because I must have some sort of vested interest.

That is pretty typical of all political discussions on the internet.  And high speed rail is a political issue.  While the engineering is not necessarily at issue, the economics are in question and the benefits and negative impact on people is up for debate.   High speed rail typically benefits a group of users while excluding others who must still pay the bill to subsidize the service.  So the debate is political and some people who are passionate on the issue but have limited abilities to express themselves will participate through ad hominems directed at those they disagree with.  That is how a sizable portion of the population works, including conspiracy theorists. 

[gillianren]

I was recently accused of being in the thrall of Monsanto because I was planning to vote against a badly written law regarding labeling GMOs in Washington State.  This was someone who knows me and therefore knows that, if they're paying me, it can't be much (I'd drive a better car, for example), but obviously I must therefore be brainwashed instead.  It happens.

[darren r]

I think as it is a live event, I am not sure that a full-blown conspiracy theory around HS2 has developed yet. However, some of the arguments around seem to have familiar traits. For example, I've spoken up as being in favour of the scheme - only to be accused of only holding that view because I must have some sort of vested interest.

Ah, I see. Yes, as others have pointed out, that kind of thing is pretty much par for the course in any political debate on the internet. To be honest, I was hoping for some swivel-eyed ranting about how it would enable asylum seekers to spread across the country faster, or the EU army to penetrate into the UK via the Channel Tunnel and be in Birmingham before we knew it, similar to the stuff about the Trans-Texas Corridor in the US. That, at least, would be entertaining.

[Echnaton]

I thought it was the Chinese solders waiting for a connection in the London Underground that was the main problem?

I don't know about the UK high speed rail, but the Trans Texas Corridor didn't need fringe theories to be seen as a the bad idea it was all by itself.  Combined with the attempt at forced HPV vaccines, it is a wonder that the Governor got reelected.  Apparently he has God on his side, because there is little other explanation.    ;(

[smartcooky]

...similar to the stuff about the Trans-Texas Corridor in the US. That, at least, would be entertaining.

Not only that, it would allow Cordell Walker to quickly get to trouble spots so that he can administer a few well-placed karate kicks!!

[Sharpeneer]

Oh no. Does this mean I have to find out who the heck is Cordell Walker is, why some people think a corridor for Trans in Texas is bad, and what exactly was being proposed re the HPV vaccine...?

It may be that this is what we have come to think is acceptable discourse in modern politics (UK & US) but I think it is still unacceptable. Everyone is entitled to a vote, but an opinion should be based around a set of facts, and not on what makes a nice comforting narrative to fit a pre-determined point of view - let alone just making stuff up. Rather than cherry-picking data that matches what we want it to say, more of us should be trying to get information out there for people to make up their own minds.

Suffice to say, my opinion on journalism is lower than that of modern politics...

[Sharpeneer]

...While the engineering is not necessarily at issue...

Well, sometimes it is in the UK's HS2 debate. Some of the groups campaigning against it suggest alternative rail ideas. Next, engineers and others in the rail industry point out that there are technical reasons why those alternatives don't work, and that most were examined and ruled out when coming up with the current plans. Then the campaigning groups dismiss the engineers as having vested interests, and thus being paid to say stuff, and thus what they say must be wrong.

[Glom]

At the end of my road, the owner of the field is constantly hosting an anti-HS2 billboard. It changes every few weeks with a new pithy slogan. I quite admire that.

The major engineering debate, or perhaps more of a project management debate, especially in light of the Christmas problems this year, is the whole upgrade other lines versus build a new one. About a decade ago, a major modernisation of the West Coast Main Line was carried out and widely viewed as being a bit of a shambles, coming in way over budget, late and not achieving the desired spec. The argument is that the cost, both direct and from disruption, of upgrading the WCML to achieve the significant capacity gains along with speed increases will actually work at notably less value than just building a new line from scratch.

[gwiz]

Personally, I think the money would be better spent on improving the whole rail network instead of shaving half an hour off the journey to London.

Seeing how slow the service from London to here in Cornwall is, I'm inclined to agree.

[Peter B]

Personally, I think the money would be better spent on improving the whole rail network instead of shaving half an hour off the journey to London.

Seeing how slow the service from London to here in Cornwall is, I'm inclined to agree.

How fast and how far?

My experience of trains in the UK was far better than my experience of trains here in Australia.

My family and I just travelled from Canberra to Sydney and back by train. The service takes about four hours for about 300 kilometres. Part of the problem is that despite the service running between Australia's capital and its largest city, it stops at virtually every little town and village on the line between the two cities. The other part of the problem is that the track quality is quite low, limiting the maximum speed the train can achieve. Sure, I appreciated being a passenger rather than driving everyone up in the car, but reaching our final destination in Sydney involved a suburban train ride followed by a 40 minute wait for a bus. Total trip time was over 6 hours; even with a couple of stops it would have been faster in the car.

There have been suggestions for a couple of decades about the idea of building a high-speed train line from Brisbane through Sydney and Canberra to Melbourne, but private enterprise will only commit to it if the government throws in large amounts of money, and no government ever seems willing to throw in that sort of money.

[darren r]

How fast and how far?

It's about comparable to your Australian journey. From London Paddington to Truro, the fastest trains take about 4 hours and 20 minutes for a 400 km (249 mile) journey. Bear in mind that from London Euston to Liverpool, where I live, takes about 2 and a quarter hours, for a similar distance.

[Glom]

Maybe that'll improve with the electrification of the Great Western Main Line.