Am I abberant

[gillianren]

Wasn't there also a screw-up on the Japanese side? Something wasn't properly synchronized between their military and their diplomats in Washington.

Somebody was running late, but that only meant the attack and the announcement weren't quite as synchronized as the Japanese government had planned.

You mean he declared war on us first. There was only one person making decisions in Germany at that time.

Sure, but it's still war between nations.

According to Shirer in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich the average German wasn't at all happy about Hitler's declaration of war on the US. They didn't exactly say so in public, but the mood in Berlin was pretty glum.

Would you have said so in public?

[Noldi400]

The only reason the US went to war with Germany is that they declared war on us after we declared war on Japan.

You mean he declared war on us first. There was only one person making decisions in Germany at that time.

According to Shirer in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich the average German wasn't at all happy about Hitler's declaration of war on the US. They didn't exactly say so in public, but the mood in Berlin was pretty glum.

It wasn't just the "average German". In The Glory And The Dream, Wm. Manchester writes that "debate raged day and night between December 8 and December 11" among the Nazi leadership about whether to honor the request from Tokyo - it would hardly have been the first pact broken by Hitler.  Ultimately Hitler, frustrated by the lack of success in Russia and provoked by FDR's "undeclared sea war", insisted on a declaration against the US.

Wasn't there also a screw-up on the Japanese side? Something wasn't properly synchronized between their military and their diplomats in Washington.

Japan was trying to adhere to the "conventions of war" by formally breaking off negotiations before the actual attack.  However, according to papers that later came to light, there was vigorous debate within the government on this point - most of the military leadership evidently did not want to give any warning at all.

It's kind of ironic to note that all of the major nations/leaders involved in the war got pulled into situations they really didn't want. 

FDR had been carefully manipulating the largely isolationist American public into an anti-German mindset and steadily provoking Hitler by attacking German U-boats trying to stop convoys carrying war materiel to Britain; he considered Hitler the greater threat and didn't expect or want to be drawn into a war with Japan. With the Pearl Harbor attack, public opinion naturally shifted to an anti-Japanese sentiment.

Hitler had been showing uncharacteristic restraint in responding to the attacks on his U-boats; he told his admirals that he would "deal severely with Roosevelt" once Russia was defeated. Evidently only Hitler's frustration with the Russian campaign and his increasing irrationality led to the Declaration against the US. Asst. Secretary of State Dean Acheson is quoted as calling Hitler's decision a "colossal folly".

Japan, occupied with its plan to extend its Empire through the western Pacific, had hoped to cripple the US to the point where they couldn't interfere - they evidently never intended to get into a prolonged conflict.  In hindsight, one major mistake they made was the classic "fighting the last war"; even though they knew from their spies in Hawaii that the US carriers were at sea, they pressed ahead with the attack in the belief that crippling the battleship fleet would put the US Navy in a helpless position.  It's kind of paradoxical that the devastating attack was carried out entirely by carrier-based aircraft, which would of course be the key to the naval war in the Pacific.  They also might have been better advised to pay more attention to destroying the support facilities, especially the navy yard, oil tank farms, and submarine base.

[Glom]

We were just glad to have you along. A conspiracy theory along the lines of Churchill orchestrating the Pearl Harbour attack has a semblance of credibility to me. At the very least, there is motive, which is a lot more than can be said for other conspiracy theories.

[Al Johnston]

Wasn't there also a screw-up on the Japanese side? Something wasn't properly synchronized between their military and their diplomats in Washington.

Somewhere (it may have been The Puzzle Palace) I read that while the US didn't have an immediate decrypt of the Japanese diplomatic communications, they did intercept an order to the Japanese embassy to destroy their codes and ciphers -- something you do only when you're about to go to war.

Apparently the Japanese Embassy was supposed to present their ultimatum, whch amounted to a declaration of war, 30 minutes before the first bombs fell on Pearl Harbour. Unfortunately, deciphering and transcribing the message took a lot longer than anticipated, and the message was only handed over after news of the attack had already reached Washington.

[twik]

In At Dawn We Slept, we get a very sympathetic view of the Japanese Ambassador at the time, who apparently was a decent man given an impossible job. A truly brilliant strategy - who better to use to lull the enemy into thinking your government doesn't want war, than an ambassador who really doesn't want war, but who is hobbled at every step from preventing it?

[Noldi400]

We were just glad to have you along. A conspiracy theory along the lines of Churchill orchestrating the Pearl Harbour attack has a semblance of credibility to me. At the very least, there is motive, which is a lot more than can be said for other conspiracy theories.

Really? I haven't heard that one, but I don't keep up with WWII CTs.  FDR was working to bring the US into the European War - I would have thought the last thing Churchill would have wanted would have been an ally distracted by its own second front (US v Japan). 

[Al Johnston]

It sometimes goes as far as to suggest that a Royal Navy submarine observed the Japanese carriers and was ordered to keep silent...

There is some credibility to Churchill wanting the then neutral USA in the war "by hook or by crook", even though the US was providing more assistance than a strict interpretation of neutrality (or indeed popular opinion) allowed - not least in finding the Bismarck...

[raven]

One must wonder how things would have gone down with a more isolationist president. No way they could ignore Pearl Harbour, but keeping neutral with Germany would have been easier.

[johnbutcher]

It sometimes goes as far as to suggest that a Royal Navy submarine observed the Japanese carriers and was ordered to keep silent...

There is some credibility to Churchill wanting the then neutral USA in the war "by hook or by crook", even though the US was providing more assistance than a strict interpretation of neutrality (or indeed popular opinion) allowed - not least in finding the Bismarck...

The submarine thing I strongly doubt. But this is the first time I had heard about the Bismarck thing. Looked it up and the pilot of the aircraft that picked Bismarck back up after she slipped away was a serving USN officer. Thanks for the opportunity to learn.

[smartcooky]

Germany commenced Operation Barbarossa on June 22, 1941. By the time of the Pearl Harbour attack in December, the invasion was all but over, and the Germans had been defeated at the Battle for Moskow which ended two days before. Having suffered a comprehensive defeat at the hands of the Russians, I do wonder what Hitler was thinking in agreeing to declare war on the US. Pearl Harbour appears to have come at the worst possible time for him.

I also wonder how differently the whole issue would have gone surrounding the German declaration of war on the US under slightly different circumstances regarding Barbarossa.  The original planned date for the commencement of the invasion was five weeks earlier on May 15. Had they gone ahead with their original date, and been able to keep to their schedule, they would not yet have run into the atrocious weather that was a big part of their undoing. They might have won Moscow, and Barbarossa might have been a success, and buoyed by that, could Hitler have decided to do something about the US attacks on their U-Boats and declared war before Pearl Harbour? If so, it would surely have put the US on a much higher alert condition, and perhaps Pearl Harbour might not have been so successful, or might not have happened at all.

[Kiwi]

For those who are interested in Pearl Harbor, the 1970 movie Tora! Tora! Tora! might be worth watching.  It's a few years since I last saw it, but I recall it showing quite a lot of the political and diplomatic issues and events, and recall comments in the 1970s that it was a little more historically accurate than Hollywood usually manages.

Chapter titles on the DVD and cast and characters where I could recognise them
(replacing " -#- " with tabs will help format the details):

Tora! Tora! Tora!

0:00:00 -#- 1  Main Titles
0:03:25 -#- 2  The axis alliance
0:09:17 -#- 3  Washington, D.C.
0:11:05 -#- 4  Operation:  Magic
0:12:56 -#- 5  Torpedo planes
0:14:32 -#- 6  Pearl Harbour
0:21:00 -#- 7  A foolproof plan
0:27:22 -#- 8  Full alert
0:33:07 -#- 9  Carrying out the plan
0:37:02 -#- 10  A new training programme
0:41:53 -#- 11  An October deadline
0:44:47 -#- 12  “Climb Mount Niitaka”
0:46:53 -#- 13  The pieces fit together
0:51:11 -#- 14  A war warning
0:59:01 -#- 15  Making the rounds
1:05:12 -#- 16  Oblivious to danger
1:08:11 -#- 17  The 14th part
1:16:08 -#- 18  Intermission
1:18:10 -#- 19  Mission underway
1:24:25 -#- 20  Convinced of an attack
1:25:20 -#- 21  A submarine in the security zone
1:32:00 -#- 22  Spotted on radar
1:33:48 -#- 23  Bad atmospherics
1:36:38 -#- 24  Flying school
1:41:34 -#- 25  The attack
1:47:56 -#- 26  Unarmed and outta gas
1:56:35 -#- 27  Striking the airfields
1:59:26 -#- 28  A run for the sea
2:02:43 -#- 29  Dogfight
2:09:50 -#- 30  Mission accomplished
2:17:41 -#- 31  End credits
2:18:53 -#- End


Cast:
Martin Balsam -#- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel, Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Pacific Fleet -#- 0:15:25
Soh Yamamura -#- Vice-Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto -#- 0:04:36
Joseph Cotten -#- Henry L. Stimson, U.S. Secretary of War -#- 0:10.07
Tatsuya Mihashi -#- Commander Minoru Genda, Air Staff Officer, Japanese First Fleet -#- 0:17:22
E.G. Marshall -#- Colonel Rufus G. Bratton -#- 0:12:02
James Whitmore -#- Admiral William F. Halsey -#- 0:19:50
Takahiro Tamura -#- Lt. Commander Fuchida -#- 0:03:25
Eijiro Tono -#- Admiral Nagumo -#- 0:34:42
Jason Robards -#- Lt. General Walter C. Short, Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Army Hawaii -#- 0:18:56
Wesley Addy -#- Lt. Commander Alvin D. Kramer -#- 0:11:31
Shogo Shimada -#- Ambassador Nomura -#- 0:10:15
Frank Aletter -#- Lt. Commander Thomas -#- ::
Koreya Senda -#- Prince Funimaro Konoye, Prime Minister of Japan -#- 0:07:17
Leon Ames -#- Frank Knox, U.S. Secretary of the Navy -#- 0:44:32
Junya Usami -#- Vice-Admiral Zengo Yoshida -#- 0:05:30
Richard Anderson -#- Captain John Earle -#- 1:28:30
Kazuo Kitamura -#- Foreign Minister Matsuoka -#- 1:09:55
Keith Andes -#- General George C. Marshall, Chief of Staff U.S. Army -#- 1:24:37
Susumu Fujita -#- Admiral Tamon Yamaguchi -#- ::
Edward Andrews -#- Admiral Stark -#- 1:04:08
Bontaro Miyake -#- Koshirou Oikawa -#- ::
Neville Brand -#- Lieutenant Kaminsky -#- 0:31:05
Leora Dana -#- Mrs Kramer -#- 0:59:57
Asao Uchida -#- General Hideki Tojo, Japan Minister of War -#- 0:08:01
George Macready -#- Cordell Hull, U.S. Secretary of State -#- 0:09:32
Norman Alden -#- Major Truman H. Landon, U.S. Army Air Corps -#- 1:31:36
Walter Brooke -#- Captain Theodore Wilkinson -#- 1:03:14 ?
Hank Jones -#- Davey (student pilot in biplane) -#- 1:36:47
Rick Cooper -#- Lieutenant George Welch -#- 0:41:06
Karl Lukas -#- Captain on torpedoed ship -#- 1:52:00
June Dayton -#- Miss Ray Cave -#- 0:29:13
Ron Masak -#- Lieutenant Laurence Ruff -#- ::
Jeff Donnell -#- Cornelia -#- ::
Shunichi Nakamura -#- Captain Kameto "Gandhi" Kurojima -#- 0:22:09
Richard Erdman -#- Colonel Edward F. French -#- 1:05:24 ?
Jerry Fogel -#- Lt. Commander William Outerbridge -#- 1:26:22
Carl Reindel -#- Lieutenant Kenneth Taylor -#- 0:41:06
Elven Havard -#- Doris Miller -#- ::
Edmon Ryan -#- Rear Admiral Bellinger -#- ::
Toru Abe -#- Rear Admiral Ounishi Takijirou -#- ::
Hiroshi Akutagawa -#- Kido Kouichi -#- ::
Kiyoshi Atsumi -#- Cook #1 -#- ::
Harold Conway -#- Aide to Ambassador Joseph C. Grew -#- 1:09:12 ?
Mike Daneen -#- Interpreter #2 -#- ::
Francis De Sales -#- Admiral Stark's aide -#- 1:15:05
James B. Douglas -#- Officer who agrees to send warning by telegram -#- 1:33:49
Bill Edwards -#- Colonel Fielder (General Short's aide) -#- 0:19:33
Hisashi Igawa -#- Japanese pilot -#- ::
Robert Karnes -#- U.S. Navy admiral -#- ::
Berry Kroeger -#- U.S. Army general -#- ::
Akira Kume -#- Japanese Embassy typist -#- 1:14:17
Ken Lynch -#- Admiral John H. Newton (Lexington) -#- 0:53:34
Charlie Picerni -#- Burning Sailor -#- 2:01:06
Tommy Splittgerber -#- Cablegram Operator - Recipient -#- 1:35:56
G.D. Spradlin -#- Naval commander on Admiral Kimmel's staff -#- 0:23:17
Larry Thor -#- General Martin (Army Air Corps) -#- 0:23:52
Hisao Toake -#- Saburo Kurusu, Japanese Ambassador to Germany -#- 0:09:09
Bob Turnbull -#- Desk sergeant -#- ::
Vivian Vance -#- Flight instructor -#- 1:36:47
Harlan Warde -#- General Marshall's staff officer -#- 1:13:19 ?
Meredith 'Tex' Weatherby -#- Joseph C. Grew, U.S. Ambassador to Japan -#- 1:09:07


The full synopsis at IMDb gives more details -- contains spoilers
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066473/synopsis?ref_=ttpl_pl_syn

[Al Johnston]

It sometimes goes as far as to suggest that a Royal Navy submarine observed the Japanese carriers and was ordered to keep silent...

There is some credibility to Churchill wanting the then neutral USA in the war "by hook or by crook", even though the US was providing more assistance than a strict interpretation of neutrality (or indeed popular opinion) allowed - not least in finding the Bismarck...

The submarine thing I strongly doubt. But this is the first time I had heard about the Bismarck thing. Looked it up and the pilot of the aircraft that picked Bismarck back up after she slipped away was a serving USN officer. Thanks for the opportunity to learn.

You're welcome. I doubt the submarine thing too - communications back then weren't what they are now, not to mention the extreme unlikelihood of a British boat operating that far from Singapore...

[Noldi400]

For those who are interested in Pearl Harbor, the 1970 movie Tora! Tora! Tora! might be worth watching.  It's a few years since I last saw it, but I recall it showing quite a lot of the political and diplomatic issues and events, and recall comments in the 1970s that it was a little more historically accurate than Hollywood usually manages.

(snipped for space....)

Perhaps more interesting than the acting credits are the screenwriting and directing credits:

Directors:
 Richard Fleischer   
 Kinji Fukasaku   ... (Japanese sequences) 
 Toshio Masuda   ... (Japanese sequences) 

Screenwriters:
 Larry Forrester      ... (screenplay) & 
 Hideo Oguni          ... (screenplay) & 
 Ryûzô Kikushima   ... (screenplay) 

The film was a joint project between Twentieth Century Fox and the Toei Company of Japan. It is reputedly one of the most historically accurate of the many Pearl Harbor films.

[raven]

Astronaut Fred Haise, yes, that Fred Haise, was one of the stunt pilots for that film, and got very badly burned after a crash

[Abaddon]

Question for JohnButcher: Are you still under the misapprehension that this is a Moon Hoax believer site?