False frame rates and a genius down under

[JayUtah]

Most music sounds the same to me, I struggle to pick out tunes from music and if you played two notes at me I would probably not be able to tell you which was higher unless they were really far apart.  If you played half a dozen notes from a little tune, I'd be completely unable to tell you if the pitches went higher-higher-lower-higher etc.

That's not at all uncommon.  In contrast, I can hear the difference between the two Quindar tones -- those beeps on Apollo recordings that are the key-in key-out signals for the radio equipment.  They differ only by a fraction of a musical step.  But that's not common, but in any case -- as has been explained -- can be improved with training and practice.

Where I was going with that question is the notion that "tone deafness" when applied to singing has two components -- hearing and matching pitches, and the physiological act of controlling one's vocal apparatus.  Most people have difficulty hearing very fine differences in pitch, amounting to a handful of Hertzen (a word I just made up).  Surprisingly, even some people who are otherwise successful at performing music have a hard time discerning direction in close pitches.  That is, they can tell that two pitches aren't exactly the same, even to a very fine difference such as the Quindar tones, but they can't tell you whether their pitch is higher or lower than a reference pitch.  This is simply ordinary tone-deafness judged according to expert standards.  Even for musicians this takes training and practice.

The other side is physiological.  You may be an expert violinist but have a lousy singing voice because you haven't yet trained your vocal apparatus to control its pitch.  This too takes training, the same way violin-playing was at first clumsy but became adept through kinesthetic rehearsal.  It's akin to steering with a loose steering wheel:  you can see the road and you know where you have to steer the car in order to get back in the lane, but the machinery isn't cooperating.

I was just curious what might be the case in your situation.

[Eastsider]

Used to work in a rather noisy equipment room, electro mechanical switches, all motors and relays and pawls and racthets and so on. In that cacophoney of audio audible assault on your ear 'oles you could pick out a switch mis stepping or a motor on its last legs. Funny how sounds works.

It's called the Cocktail Party effect, and it's fascinating.  The name derives from your ability to carry on a conversation in a crowded room and pay attention only to the people you're talking to and perceive their voices as predominant, when an objective measurement of relative sound levels reveals no physical reason why you should perceive it that way.  We've discovered this perceptual ability to focus (not just in hearing but also with other senses), and conversely, to weed out "background" stimulus is (1) extremely important to the brain, and (2) agonizing for us engineers who have to design human-machine interfaces -- specifically instrumentation that doesn't lull operators into complacency.

I experience that almost every day which is why, given my line of work, people are surprised when they find out that I don't listen to music in the car and listen to very little at home. Silence is sometimes very underrated.

I actually have custom molded ear plugs with filters that remove decibels but not frequencies so I can hear more clearly in cacophonous situations; nightclubs, theaters, rehearsals....I even sometimes use them at parties if they are of the louder variety.

[Andromeda]

So in response to being called out on your patronising, condescending post... you just repeated yourself, Eastsider.

I'm not remotely interested in arguing with you about whether you are or I am a better witness to my own experience.  It's ridiculous.

I'm aware that I miss out on a lot of stuff because of this, and I feel a bit sad about it.  I've spent years with patient and not-so-patient music teachers.  Several members of my family are musicians, who teach as well as play for pleasure and perform.  I really don't like people dismissing all that and telling me just to "work on it".

[Andromeda]

Used to work in a rather noisy equipment room, electro mechanical switches, all motors and relays and pawls and racthets and so on. In that cacophoney of audio audible assault on your ear 'oles you could pick out a switch mis stepping or a motor on its last legs. Funny how sounds works.

It's called the Cocktail Party effect, and it's fascinating.  The name derives from your ability to carry on a conversation in a crowded room and pay attention only to the people you're talking to and perceive their voices as predominant, when an objective measurement of relative sound levels reveals no physical reason why you should perceive it that way.

That ability pretty much eludes me, too.

[Eastsider]

So in response to being called out on your patronising, condescending post... you just repeated yourself, Eastsider.

I'm not not remotely interested in arguing with you about whether you are or I am a better witness to my own experience.  It's ridiculous.

I'm aware that I miss out on a lot of stuff because of this, and I feel a bit sad about it.  I've spent years with patient and not-so-patient music teachers.  Several members of my family are musicians, who teach as well as play for pleasure and perform.  I really don't need people dismissing all that.

I'm not dismissing your experiences nor do I feel was I at anytime condescending. If I came across that way, that was not my intent.

I have had several of those experiences in my own life. If anything, I can relate.
But in my experience, if you think you can't, you won't be able to, no matter how much encouragement anyone gives.

I went through several suspect teachers early on until I found good ones. Not all methods and approaches are effective for everyone. I had one teacher back in NYC that would try every possible permutation of explaining or demonstrating a musical problem in my development until I understood it. He knew from his then 40 years of experience that while one student would understand explanation A, another would better understand explanation B..... or explanations C, D or F. That changed my life.

This is why I respectfully disagree. Can you tell the difference between a low note and a high note? If yes, then you can be taught. Give yourself more credit. I don't expect anyone to be able to immediately pick out individual 64th notes in a Coltrane solo or detect key modulations in a Stravinsky piece. I'm talking do re mi here. Also, as Jay previously mentioned, hearing notes and producing notes are two different things. I can hear notes but need an instrument to produce them. I would not subject anyone to my singing!

But ultimately, music, regardless of desired proficiency, is about enjoyment of the process as much as it is the end result.

[Andromeda]

I have enough self-awareness to know whether my limitations are physical or mental, thank you, and where they lie.  By telling me you disagree with that, and insisting you know better than I do what to I should do about it, you are dismissing my knowledge of my own experience.

[Jason Thompson]

No one is completely tone deaf.

If you define 'completely tone deaf' as being unable to distinguish between the upper and lower notes on a piano then quite possibly you are correct. However, since Andromeda clearly described her range of abilities with music, that hardly seems relevant.

If a person can hear that, they can be taught to hear more. To what level? That depends on the person.

So you pretty much agree that it is possible that Andromeda actually does have the difficulties described.

Some people hear to greater or lesser levels naturally, but unless totally deaf every one can hear tones & notes.

Not in dispute. The ability in question is the range and definition. Since there is ultimately a physiological root to perception of notes, why do you dismiss the possibility that some people actually do have these limits that may not be correctable?

I am not dismissing anyone's experience, quite the opposite.

With respect, responding to someone's description of themselves with what amounts to 'no you're not' is exactly that.

I didn't say anyone hasn't put in the work, all I said is that it takes work.
It also takes THE RIGHT work. You would not believe how many people I have met that do not know how to practice.

I also said some people progress faster than others.

All of which is essentially saying someone who may have a physiological or neurological disorder (for want of a better word) just has to work at it to overcome it. That is simply rubbish.

BTW, I am colorblind.

So if you work at it, surely you can overcome that? No? Why is hearing so different from sight? I can distinguish a greater range of shades and hues than a lot of people I know. I would not presume to tell someone who can tell the difference between red and blue (the visible spectrum equivalent of high and low notes) that they can be taught to pick out every intermediate wavelength if they just work at it.

[Jason Thompson]

I can hear the difference between the two Quindar tones -- those beeps on Apollo recordings that are the key-in key-out signals for the radio equipment.  They differ only by a fraction of a musical step.

Ooh, I can too!  Didn't realise that was uncommon.

[Luke Pemberton]

Talking of being able to hear music, has anyone seen the Arduino floppy drive music.

Imperial Death March

With some digging you can find some incredible stuff, and some not so good stuff.

[Luke Pemberton]

In contrast, I can hear the difference between the two Quindar tones -- those beeps on Apollo recordings that are the key-in key-out signals for the radio equipment.

I don't really follow the hoax theory very closely, at least the more detailed claims and various nuances. I have always tended to stick with the stock arguments, and pick up what I can as I go along when the heavy engineering aspects are discussed. Am I correct to think that the quindar tones were presented as evidence for the hoax? I'm sure they formed the basis of some convoluted argument by David Percy or Jack White, and Straydog02 brought it up in debate. At the time I didn't give the argument much time as I was more intrigued by Ralph Rene's alternative science theories and reading into the radiation claims. My memory might be playing games.

{Edit: Typo}

[Eastsider]

If you define 'completely tone deaf' as being unable to distinguish between the upper and lower notes on a piano then quite possibly you are correct. However, since Andromeda clearly described her range of abilities with music, that hardly seems relevant.

It's very relevant. If one was completely tone deaf, they would not be able to even distinguish the difference between a xylophone and a trumpet. All sound is made of a tone or groupings of tones.

So you pretty much agree that it is possible that Andromeda actually does have the difficulties described.

Difficulties yes, not impossibilities in my opinion. That being said, I used a sports analogy earlier to describe my love of playing baseball vs the reality of me never playing for the Dodgers. That doesn't stop me from playing for fun and working on my bad arm. I know I have a limit but that also doesn't stop me. And as much as I try, I'm never going to throw 90mph.

But again, despite my arm, I can still throw the ball and as long as one hears, they can hear music.

Not in dispute. The ability in question is the range and definition. Since there is ultimately a physiological root to perception of notes, why do you dismiss the possibility that some people actually do have these limits that may not be correctable?

Yes. But that remains on a case by case basis. In some cases I have found it's more frustration coupled with poor teaching methods. Or not understanding that one is not going to play immediately like Pablo Casals after a month or study.
I already mentioned that some people hear differently and some more precise than others. My disagreement as mentioned earlier lies in one completely disregarding themselves as "tone deaf."

All of which is essentially saying someone who may have a physiological or neurological disorder (for want of a better word) just has to work at it to overcome it. That is simply rubbish.

Of which no disorder or medical condition was mentioned. I never mentioned medical or physical conditions. Neither did the previous posters. I actually do have one such problem called "tinnitus" which is the result of years and years of exposure to sound via music and environment. It creates ringing in the years which can interfere with sound perception. I have no belief that I can overcome it "just through work." I had to adapt. I never said that one could overcome it all through work.

So if you work at it, surely you can overcome that? No? Why is hearing so different from sight?

Two completely different senses. Though I do agree that some people see & hear differently. Despite my color blindness, it doesn't stop me from enjoying painting or photography.

I can distinguish a greater range of shades and hues than a lot of people I know. I would not presume to tell someone who can tell the difference between red and blue (the visible spectrum equivalent of high and low notes) that they can be taught to pick out every intermediate wavelength if they just work at it.

I am aware of limitations. I have mine just as every else does. I had to learn that the way I saw reds and greens was a lot different than others and learned to adapt. Again, there was no previous mention of any kind of disorder in relation to hearing so I find the color blindness comparison to be a little out of place here. If there was/is any kind of disorder, then I would be wrong. But I still stand by that if one can hear the difference between a low C# and a high C# on a Bosendorfer, then they can be taught to hear.....but to what degrees of intricacy & accuracy of, is another thing. I am not very good at computations but have a musician friend who basically has the "Rain Man" ability with numbers & sequences, he's like a walking calculator. No matter how hard I "work at it," I'm probably never going to have his ability at his level, but I can still count, add & subtract.
But because I don't have that ability, does that mean I should give up math? 

I did not want to offend anyone and offer my apologies if I did, but I stand by my opinions.

Play music because you love it and it brings you joy.

I have to go review some music for a show I have to play tomorrow night. 'till the next time.

[gillianren]

If you can't hear the difference between tones (and "if you can hear the difference between the highest and lowest notes on a piano, you can learn to hear the differences between all the others" is nonsense), why would you even bother to learn how to play music?  In fact, I would put it to you that it is quite impossible to learn how to play if you can't hear the difference.  And physiology makes it quite clear that some people literally cannot hear the difference between certain pitches.  Continuing to insist otherwise is both rude and ignorant.

[Andromeda]

Of which no disorder or medical condition was mentioned. I never mentioned medical or physical conditions. Neither did the previous posters. I actually do have one such problem called "tinnitus" which is the result of years and years of exposure to sound via music and environment. It creates ringing in the years which can interfere with sound perception. I have no belief that I can overcome it "just through work." I had to adapt. I never said that one could overcome it all through work.

I've only cut this bit out because it is the only bit where you are not repeating yourself.

I have horrendous tinnitus, not as a result of exposure to loud environments, I've had it since I was a small child.  So you can now admit I have a physiological problem with sound perception.  It's a shame that you are demanding some kind of proof from me of what I say about my experience rather than just accepting it.

Just drop it, Eastsider, you aren't listening to what we are saying as evidenced by your going on about playing music.  You seem to have got it into your head that I expect to pick up and instrument and play it well immediately, which is not at all what I've been saying and is actually quite insulting to me.  This is about hearing tones, not making them.  I know what hard work is, I've done plenty of it.

I'm baffled that you keep telling me I'm wrong about my own experience and abilities.  Just stop.

[Jason Thompson]

It's very relevant. If one was completely tone deaf, they would not be able to even distinguish the difference between a xylophone and a trumpet.

According to what definition? Any inability to distinguish relative pitch is considered being tone deaf, just as there are many different types of colourblindness. Red/green is the most common, but if I followed your definitions then you wouldn't be 'colourblind' unless you were entirely unable to distingusih colour at all and saw the world in greyscale. There are such people, but they are very rare.

Yes. But that remains on a case by case basis.

And is it not just possible that Andromeda and myself have a lot more familiarity with this particular case than you do? Please stop trying to tell us we are wrong about something we have far more detailed knowledge of than you do.

Two completely different senses.

But both have a physiological (and by extension genetic) root. If the physiological apparatus is different so is the perception. That goes for sight, hearing, taste, smell, touch and any of the other myriad senses we have.

Despite my color blindness, it doesn't stop me from enjoying painting or photography.

And Andromeda's hearing doesn't stop her enjoying listening to music, just in a different way than I do, for example.

Again, there was no previous mention of any kind of disorder in relation to hearing so I find the color blindness comparison to be a little out of place here.

There was no mention, but you simply assumed it was not the case and jumped in with a complete disregard for Andromeda's own experience of herself.

But because I don't have that ability, does that mean I should give up math?

No, but does it also mean you should sit quietly by while someone tells you that you can have that ability if you work at it rather than accepting that you know your own limitations? This is the whole crux of this disagreement. Andromeda knows her own limitations. They qualify as a form of tone deafness. You don't know her well enough to just dismiss them.

[johnbutcher]

It's called the Cocktail Party effect, and it's fascinating.  The name derives from your ability to carry on a conversation in a crowded room and pay attention only to the people you're talking to and perceive their voices as predominant, when an objective measurement of relative sound levels reveals no physical reason why you should perceive it that way.
[/quote]

That ability pretty much eludes me, too.
[/quote]

I have to go with Andromeda here. I, too can`t distinguish tones and my wife, who is a trained singer would back that up. At parties I can`t take part in conversations once the music starts as it drowns out the conversations.

Sloop