Author Topic: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece  (Read 95696 times)

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece
« Reply #90 on: September 28, 2014, 02:05:04 PM »
Why oh why, if the video was slowed down, do the sequential colors appear with the 3 field disk buffer delay, like they should. No HB can ever seem to answer that (let alone have an inkling of an idea of what I am talking about)?

Stan told you in a conversation. Do you know what he told you?

Maybe we should invite Jarrah to answer that question.

[mischief mode]

Jarrah, given you are the ideological heir to Bill and Ralph, please make a video answering this question. Oh, I forgot, SG Collins whipped you hard over your understanding of TV, photography and video technology, so that's another subject you know nothing about.

Since he's now managed to publicly embarrass himself with math fail #369, I don't suppose he'll be turning up here in a hurry too soon.

[/mischief mode]
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 03:01:22 PM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline dwight

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Re: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece
« Reply #91 on: September 28, 2014, 02:16:44 PM »
Stan told me lots of things, but according to Adrian, he didn't tell me what he really wanted to tell me, so Im just as much in the dark as you.
"Honeysuckle TV on line!"

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece
« Reply #92 on: September 28, 2014, 03:00:40 PM »
Stan told me lots of things, but according to Adrian, he didn't tell me what he really wanted to tell me, so Im just as much in the dark as you.

We are both in the dark here, but we should be able to see stars from our blast crater.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline ka9q

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Re: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece
« Reply #93 on: September 28, 2014, 04:33:26 PM »
Why oh why, if the video was slowed down, do the sequential colors appear with the 3 field disk buffer delay, like they should.
Well, obviously, the necessary modifications were made to the camera and converter to handle the problem!

See, that was easy!

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece
« Reply #94 on: September 28, 2014, 05:00:37 PM »
Why oh why, if the video was slowed down, do the sequential colors appear with the 3 field disk buffer delay, like they should.
Well, obviously, the necessary modifications were made to the camera and converter to handle the problem!

See, that was easy!

Just as much as NASA had a magic machine to make moon rocks and a magic machine to leave zap pits and a magic machine to cover the rocks in a good old coating of He3. In fact, NASA had all sorts of magic machines to fake the landings yet did not have the capacity to actually do it for real.

I'm utterly incredulous with the idea that thousands of people were involved in a hoax, yet no one has come forward other than a few kids that live in their mother's basement.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 05:32:53 PM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline VQ

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Re: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece
« Reply #95 on: September 28, 2014, 05:43:22 PM »
Well, see the sequential Tv signal was sent back to earth in its raw form, that is one field of red, one of  green, and one of blue, one after the other. These were then put through a matrixer which combined the three seperate colors, by storing the two previous fields while the third came in live. So, say red was coming in live, the disc buffer would combine it with the previous green and blue fields. This then, created a full color image using three not quite aligned seperate color fields from the sequential Tv signal. If this was then slowed down, as the HB camp like to claim, this sequence would be slowed down as well. Say the signal was slowed down by half, then you would see the color artefacting last for two fields instead if one. (like the launch "confetti" video would have the same color streaks repeated over two fields, rather than one).

No HB can ever explain why that is not the case.

Does this apply to all the TV footage, or just later missions? If the latter, which ones?

Offline smartcooky

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Re: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece
« Reply #96 on: September 28, 2014, 08:59:19 PM »
Why oh why, if the video was slowed down, do the sequential colors appear with the 3 field disk buffer delay, like they should.
Well, obviously, the necessary modifications were made to the camera and converter to handle the problem!

See, that was easy!

Yup. Its "Handwaving 101"
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline ka9q

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Re: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece
« Reply #97 on: September 28, 2014, 11:49:57 PM »
Does this apply to all the TV footage, or just later missions? If the latter, which ones?
It was used on all the color cameras on Apollo. Apollo 11 had a color camera in the CSM, but the LM carried a slow-scan black-and-white camera to the lunar surface. Starting with Apollo 12, the cameras were all of the field-sequential color type, but the one carried to the lunar surface failed shortly after the first EVA began when Alan Bean accidentally pointed it at the sun.

I think about that incident when I see modern CCD imagers looking at the sun without any apparent damage. TV cameras have come a long way.

Offline ka9q

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Re: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece
« Reply #98 on: September 29, 2014, 01:06:04 AM »
So, say red was coming in live, the disc buffer would combine it with the previous green and blue fields. This then, created a full color image using three not quite aligned seperate color fields from the sequential Tv signal.
What did this do to vertical resolution? The camera generated standard interlaced NTSC monochrome, so the color wheel (which was BGRBGR, not RGBRGB) would produce the 6-field sequence

1. Blue/Odd field
2. Green/Even field
3. Red/Odd field
4. Blue/Even field
5. Green/Odd field
6. Red/Even field
(etc).

Let's assume frame 6 has just arrived and you want to build an even NTSC composite color field. You can use the most recent blue and red fields since they're even, but you'd have to use field #2 rather than #5 to get an even green field and this would worsen the confetti problem on moving images.

Or did they just punt and use the most recent field from each color regardless of whether it was even or odd? In modern terms this would effectively make the system 262p/60 rather than 525i/30, halving the vertical resolution of NTSC. Since horizontal resolution was already limited by communications bandwidth, maybe you wouldn't lose much by reducing the vertical resolution in this way. Is this what they did?

It's a shame that recordings of the original monochrome signal didn't survive because we could now display them directly on modern PCs without going through the NTSC step. And we could do all sorts of digital filtering to better remove interference from the voice and telemetry subcarriers.

Offline dwight

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Re: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece
« Reply #99 on: September 29, 2014, 03:05:13 AM »
They delayed the odd or even field to have it match the other two. A very clever system.

Now playng devils advocate, how did the doubling of frame rate affect the television bandwidth, and why did, say, Bochum, not mention this in their Apollo TV reception tests?
"Honeysuckle TV on line!"

Offline ka9q

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Re: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece
« Reply #100 on: September 29, 2014, 05:33:53 AM »
They delayed the odd or even field to have it match the other two. A very clever system.
So they used the method I described and did not punt? In that case they kept the system as 525i/30 (or 525i/29.97, to be precise).
Quote
Now playng devils advocate, how did the doubling of frame rate affect the television bandwidth, and why did, say, Bochum, not mention this in their Apollo TV reception tests?
I'm not sure what you're asking. Converting a 525i/30 system into a 262p/60 system would not affect the signal bandwidth but it would halve the vertical resolution. There would also be some vertical jitter because the camera is still operating in 525i/30.

The horizontal resolution was already severely limited by the presence of the 1.25 NBFM voice subcarrier and the 1.024 MHz telemetry subcarrier. Only in the later missions did they figure out how to notch out these subcarriers so they wouldn't have to just low pass filter the video to 1 MHz, which is very narrow for NTSC. They used demodulation/remodulation with cancellation, a pretty advanced method for its time but fairly common now; it's one of the ways to remove interference in a CDMA (spread spectrum multiple access) system. You demodulate the strongest signal, then subtract it out, then demodulate the next strongest signal and subtract it out, and so on.

Still, had Apollo made high quality TV a requirement earlier in the design of the Unified S-Band system, it could have been designed to handle it much better than it did. Simply moving the video to a dedicated FM transmitter and keeping voice and telemetry on PM (as the CSM did) was one obvious solution, though it would have required extra hardware on the LM and LRV.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 05:38:54 AM by ka9q »

Offline dwight

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Re: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece
« Reply #101 on: September 29, 2014, 06:45:31 AM »
Hi ka9q just so you know, im not having a go at you, just posing thoughts for the HBs. who may be thinking they have it all solved. I need to dig out the disc recorder specs I have somewhere, where it explains t he delay system.
"Honeysuckle TV on line!"

Offline ka9q

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Re: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece
« Reply #102 on: September 29, 2014, 11:03:33 AM »
Oh I see that now, I thought you were referring to the doubled "frame" rate of 60 Hz that would be established if you took each 262.5 line field as a separate frame. Besides, as we all know if you're going to simulate lunar gravity with video shot in earth gravity, the correct ratio is sqrt(6):1, not 2:1. Doing a system with that oddball conversion rate and no obvious artifacts (like occasionally duplicated or dropped frames) would be quite a challenge.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 11:22:15 AM by ka9q »

Offline ka9q

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Re: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece
« Reply #103 on: September 29, 2014, 11:22:03 AM »
I just realized that if you try to maintain a "true" 525-line interlaced system in the conversion, you'd have to use the fields out of sequence.

Let's say field #5 has just arrived and you need to make the odd field of a true 525-line frame. You'd combine fields 1 (blue), 3 (red) and 5 (green), all of which were odd.

Then when field #6 arrives, you'd make the even field by combining fields 2 (green), 4 (blue) and 6 (red), all of which are even. But notice that not only are you building each NTSC frame out of fields that span twice as much time, you have sent green field 5 before green field 2! That would make the color confetti problem even weirder.

The whole sequence would be something like this:

blue      green     red
1          5          3
4          2          6
7          5          3
4          8          6
7          5          9
10         8          6
7          11         9
10         8          12
13         11         9
10         14         12
13         11         15
16         14         12
13         17         15
16         14         18
...


i.e., use three consecutive blue fields, then step one back and use three overlapping consecutive blue fields, etc., with interleaved phasing for the other two colors. What a mess! The only practical way to do this would have been to slow the color wheel down to 30 Hz, i.e., to make a frame-sequential color system. And you'd still have twice the time spread between the individual colors making up each NTSC frame.

So now I understand what you meant. They did turn the interlaced 525-line 30 Hz frame rate camera into effectively a 262-line progressive 60 Hz frame rate camera. And since alternate camera fields start half a line apart, you'd have to delay one by half a line to match the other (I forget whether the odd or even field starts in the middle of the line).

Interlacing probably seemed like such a good idea at the time, eh? Now it's just a major headache...

(Edited to add frame sequence examples)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 12:10:04 PM by ka9q »

Offline JayUtah

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Re: A rebuttal to Jarrah's latest masterpiece
« Reply #104 on: September 29, 2014, 01:17:11 PM »
All of which brings us to the wonderful depth of knowledge one can acquire by studying the actual facts surrounding Apollo and the Space Race.  Conspiracy theorists use conspiracism as a shortcut to erudition.  Why not just study the real thing?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams