Good books about the moon landings hoax?

[Noldi400]

For someone who claims to have spoken to the ghost of Neil Armstrong, you seem to have this concept of his career that would be arrived at by a British subject who only did a little bit of research and really did not delve into the details, and assumed he knew how military service worked in the U.S.  I hope you realize that I'm an internationally recognized historian of the Apollo project as well as a professional aerospace engineer.  I will expose you.

I personally think that if he met the ghost of an Apollo astronaut, it was Pete Conrad in disguise - that sounds like exactly the line of BS Pete would lay on someone.

[Jockndoris]

And you still need to explain how you got to golf at a course reserved for active-duty U.S. military personnel, that does not allow guests.  I'm a U.S. citizen and an erstwhile defense contractor, and even I don't get to golf there.  So please explain this.

I have been twice to the Navy Marine Golf Club which is well known for its policy of only allowing people in if they are “military”.  I was told that each time I phoned the club to see if I would be welcome there.  It is a somewhat swish club way above the norm with a good course which had not changed much in 40 years, except the pine trees round the last green were somewhat taller as they were now 100 feet or more in height.

The first time I went there was in 1969 and  I was the invited guest of three “military” men who were well known members of the club . They  particularly wanted me to play with them as their partner because they had found out that I played off a low handicap. They had to sign me into a visitors book before I would be allowed to play.  In the event the four of us won the competition.

The second time was when I returned in November 2013.  I was shown round by David Chin the club professional who was most interested in my story of playing there 40 odd years ago. He showed me the history of the club and there are photograph in the book of both David Chin and I and of the History of the club which is set out.  All you have to do to see those, is to order the book or ask me nicely to send you a copy the same way I have sent one to JayUtah.  Jockndoris


...and just to confirm the accuracy of what we are saying about this golf course...



I know that these restrictions were strictly observed in 1979 when I was there, so I would expect that to be at least the case 10 years earlier.

I cannot speak for what actually happens now.

[Jockndoris]

Why do you think he was a civilian?   Neil Armstrong was a Naval Aviator with the rank of Commander and subject to military disciplines all his life.

No, that's sometimes how it works in the United Kingdom, but that's expressly not how it works in the United States.  Once an officer leaves the service -- as Armstrong did long before joining NASA -- he is no longer entitled to the privileges afforded active-duty servicemen.

It was a big deal that Armstrong flew the X-15 as a civilian.  It was a big deal that he came to NASA as a civilian already wearing astronaut wings.  It was a big deal that the commander of the first Apollo landing mission was not a military officer, but rather an aviator who had distinguished himself as a test pilot as a civilian.

For someone who claims to have spoken to the ghost of Neil Armstrong, you seem to have this concept of his career that would be arrived at by a British subject who only did a little bit of research and really did not delve into the details, and assumed he knew how military service worked in the U.S.  I hope you realize that I'm an internationally recognized historian of the Apollo project as well as a professional aerospace engineer.  I will expose you.

And you still need to explain how you got to golf at a course reserved for active-duty U.S. military personnel, that does not allow guests.  I'm a U.S. citizen and an erstwhile defense contractor, and even I don't get to golf there.  So please explain this.

I have been twice to the Navy Marine Golf Club which is well known for its policy of only allowing people in if they are “military”.  I was told that each time I phoned the club to see if I would be welcome there.  It is a somewhat swish club way above the norm with a good course which had not changed much in 40 years, except the pine trees round the last green were somewhat taller as they were now 100 feet or more in height.

The first time I went there was in 1969 and  I was the invited guest of three “military” men who were well known members of the club . They  particularly wanted me to play with them as their partner because they had found out that I played off a low handicap. They had to sign me into a visitors book before I would be allowed to play.  In the event the four of us won the competition.

The second time was when I returned in November 2013.  I was shown round by David Chin the club professional who was most interested in my story of playing there 40 odd years ago. He showed me the history of the club and there are photograph in the book of both David Chin and I and of the History of the club which is set out.  All you have to do to see those, is to order the book or ask me nicely to send you a copy the same way I have sent one to JayUtah.
I hope this explains to you both that I was a honoured guest at the club  Jockndoris

[twik]

Now, we mustn't be too harsh.

I, for one, would be fascinated to hear how the author, a British civilian, got invited to an American military-only golf course. What special requirements did you have to meet, what hoops did you have to go through?

I'd be less fascinated in the details of a conspiracy where the participants were running around in public during the few days it was essential that they not be seen on Earth. This is the definition of Idiot Plot.

[Echnaton]

I can easily believe that if any astronaut showed up at that golf course on his own or as a guest of an active military member, some officer or another would have granted an exception with any further guests in the party.   Such was the star power of astronauts at the time.  But that is all speculation. 

However the actual event is potentially a matter of record, and until the claimant provides as evidence something other that his fanciful, ghost communing, imagination there is no reason to believe it happened. Especially since Armstrong was known to be elsewhere.  Much less the matter of the very recognizable Armstrong not being where the whole world thought he was, and no one making mention of it.

[twik]

I can easily believe that if any astronaut showed up at that golf course on his own or as a guest of an active military member, some officer or another would have granted an exception with any further guests in the party.   Such was the star power of astronauts at the time.  But that is all speculation. 

Oh, they might have gotten in. But it would not have been by showing up and saying, "Hi, I'm with an astronaut". I once had to get onto a U.S. military base, despite being a Canadian citizen. It's doable, but there was a lot to it. I don't think that the U.S. military was so star struck that anyone accompanying Armstong wouldn't have had to be vetted carefully, and get a lot of people signing off. I'd like to hear Jock explain just what paperwork it took.

And this brings up the question, just how quickly would Armstrong's star power have faded in their eyes if he were golfing when he was supposed to be going to the Moon?

[JayUtah]

I would accept Armstrong showing up to the golf course and someone making an exception for him, given the star power.  However, the problem is still a very public appearance and an alleged written record while he was supposed to be on the Moon.  Star power works both ways.  Armstrong won't get in incognito, and he can't escape widespread publicity for being somewhere other than where he claimed.  "Moon-Bound Armstrong Seen at Hawaii Golf Course" would be a huge headline.

But I can't accept that a mid-20s British accountant is going to get into a U.S. military-only golf course.  I need lots and lots and lots of verifiable proof in order to accept that.

[twik]

That's why I'd like Jock to explain exactly how it was done. It would be intriguing, I think, to compare it to the experiences of others who have had to get approval from the military for various purposes.

But in any case, as others have pointed out, it's totally ridiculous that, at the time when he should have been on the Moon, Armstrong was casually going out for golf games with visiting Brits, signing in under his own name. At least most conspiracy theorists credit the hypothetical conspirators with some intelligence. But "keep the fake astronauts holed up somewhere no one will see them" seems to be a pretty obvious point of any successful conspiracy.

[carpediem]

But I can't accept that a mid-20s British accountant is going to get into a U.S. military-only golf course.  I need lots and lots and lots of verifiable proof in order to accept that.

I'm guessing the 'three military men' who invited him to play turn out to be Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins just to double down on the stupid.

[Echnaton]

At least most conspiracy theorists credit the hypothetical conspirators with some intelligence.

But Jockndoris communes with ghosts, so the extent of his reliance on the imagination, as opposed to reality, to support his notions is pretty open ended.

[JayUtah]

I'm guessing the 'three military men' who invited him to play turn out to be Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins just to double down on the stupid.

"Hey, Buzz and Mike, I know we're supposed to be on the Moon right now, but let's go find some random Englishman to play golf with and talk our way into a private golf course where everyone will immediately recognize us.  Oh, be sure to sign your real name in the guest book."

[smartcooky]

"Hey, Buzz and Mike, I know we're supposed to be on the Moon right now, but let's go find some random Englishman to play golf with and talk our way into a private golf course where everyone will immediately recognize us.  Oh, be sure to sign your real name in the guest book."

Yep. Some HB assertions are so totally laden with stupid that they don't even merit the time to discuss them, so instead we use them for entertainment, and take the piss! 

[skeptic_UK]

Hey sorry for not replying for a while. I was kind of scared to be frank haha.
 
Some great posts and some not so great. Why is there so much anger around?!

Anyway. I've definitely loved reading some of the links and have ordered some books. For me, it doesn't really matter if Jocks book is fact or fiction, just that it covers a topic I love to read about, so I've ordered a copy from his website. I hope it is good, if anything it was fun watching people get so worked up about it!

I'll gladly give a mini review once I've got it and had chance to read it, might be a while though. Thanks guys.

[RAF]

Why is there so much anger around?!

Why are you not angry that people would lie about the Apollo Moon missions?

... it doesn't really matter if Jocks book is fact or fiction, just that it covers a topic I love to read about...

So you don't care if it's lies or not?

Mighty "forgiving" of ya...

[Allan F]

Why is there so much anger around?!

People tend to be less civil when somebody starts claiming strange things on their favourite subject. Especialy when they cannot support it with factual information - and are openly telling big fat lies. Most people here have a foundation in science and engineering - knowledgebased people - which does not mesh well with ghosts.