Author Topic: Good books about the moon landings hoax?  (Read 480645 times)

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3814
    • Clavius
Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #375 on: September 18, 2014, 11:08:54 AM »
I found the book entertaining.

Fine, but this forum is not a literary society.  If you wish to praise the book for its supposed literary value and ignore its allegations of fact, take your opinion elsewhere.

Quote
Its factualness is completely irrelevant to that.

The factual accuracy of its claims regarding U.S. space exploration is all we care about here.  If you are not here to discuss that, then you're in the wrong forum.  We have endured quite sufficient discussion on the supposed merits and faults of the book on grounds other than its allegations of fact.  If you are simply going to repeat over and over than you like the book, consider your opinion on that point sufficiently tendered for the time being and reconsider belaboring it.

Quote
Not sure how the fact you're a professional aerospace engineer has anything to do with what books or categories I chose to like or believe in.

It has do to with what books you're allowed to advocate on this forum, for what reason, and upon what grounds.

A book that claims to report facts about Apollo and its participants is admissible for that reason only.  We don't care about "nicely done" maps of the author's world travels.  We don't care about effluent praise for its ability to entertain you.

The book alleges that the Apollo missions were a "military hoax," and subsequent discussion confirms that is is an allegation of historical fact, not some literary device.  In support of that claim it offers two forms of proof.  One is alleged posthumous testimony from Neil Armstrong, which we can reject summarily for lack of foundation.  Out of an abundance of charity, we can also analyze the content of that testimony irrespective of its claim to have been supernaturally delivered.  That analysis, coming from aerospace professionals familiar with the persons and procedures alluded to in the testimony, is sufficiently probative and affirms the conclusion that the Armstrong testimony is not credible.

The other proffered form of proof is an essay purporting to be a learned treatise on the feasibility of manned space flight.  It does not claim in any way to depend upon supernatural factors.  Instead it purports to be a correct and well-informed discussion from a suitably qualified writer on the nature of space flight and the likelihood of its being completed as history advertises it was.  This evidence is eminently justiciable by aerospace professionals.  In private correspondence its author reaffirms it as proof of his claim that a manned lunar landing in 1969 was impossible for reasons having nothing to do with his supernatural claims.

As far as this forum is concerned, only three pages of the book merit discussion here.  The rest is literary criticism that belongs elsewhere.

Quote
A number of horror films claim to be 'based on fact'.

Apples and oranges.

Fiction "based on fact" generally doesn't affect the world outside its small setting.  Especially it doesn't challenge the overall veracity of well documented world events.  As such the claim can be made credibly, often only for marketing purposes, that a story is based on fact.  This book claims that it is fact, and purports to overturn a widely-accepted world event participated in by hundreds of thousands of people.  Not only overturn it, but effectively to call those many thousands of participants liars and frauds.

And yes, when fiction "based on fact" runs sufficiently afoul of verifiable fact, it does receive the criticism it merits.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3814
    • Clavius
Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #376 on: September 18, 2014, 11:09:34 AM »
A discussion is not repeatedly claiming I'm a liar, Illiterate, and someone else in disguise, repeatedly and childishly no matter how many times I state otherwise. You're all attacking me and then feigning 'shock and disgust' when I call you all out on it.

Why are you in this forum?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #377 on: September 18, 2014, 11:13:13 AM »
Based on the length of the item in question, you would have to have poor reading skills to spend any length of time at it.  That's not an insult; that's a statement of fact.

Why do we care if it's true or not?  Here's a better question.  Why don't you?  Why doesn't it bother you that someone is attempting to make money on lies?  Not fiction--lies.  His story is impossible whether you believe in ghosts or not.  Too much of the information that is covered in it is not credible.  The golfing story has been explained to be impossible several ways.  That doesn't bother you?  It doesn't bother you that someone is maligning one of the greatest accomplishments in human history--and not doing a credible job at it?  Ye Gods, the "golfing in a tournament while they were supposed to be on the Moon" is the dumbest hoax claim I've ever heard, and I've heard some doozies.  But it doesn't bother you?  Why not?  Do you not care about educating yourself?  Do you not care about having the basic human decency to acknowledge someone's accomplishments instead of lying and saying their ghost told you things?  A ghost that, again, couldn't even get the age of the person it's supposed to have been of right?
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline Andromeda

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 746
Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #378 on: September 18, 2014, 11:17:11 AM »
Don't shout at me.  I don't deserve your rudeness.

Why have you ignored the substance of my post?

You're the 2nd poster who's tried to look clever by trying to somehow 'catch me out' by pointing out something I've posted to proof I'm apparently Jockndoris. Excuse me for finding that a little annoying. Don't get all defensive when I show you up in return.

I accept your apology for insinuating what you did even though you seem to have forgotten to type it out  :-*

As for the substance of your post I'm not sure what the point of it is? I indeed asked for some recommendations. Which you kindly all gave. Not sure why you find it so weird that I didn't follow every single one?

You also seem to be criticising ME for the contents of SOMEONE ELSE'S BOOK. Not sure why I should be an apologist for Jockndoris/Neil Burns just because I bought his book.

I don't need to "try" to "look" clever, no need for insults.  I have not insulted you at all, so why do you think it acceptable to insult me?  Wasn't it you who said an ad hominem attack shows a failure of argument?

I did not insult you, so I have nothing to apologise for.  The kissy face is childish behaviour, IMO.

I suggest you read my earlier post again, in which I responded to the points you made.

I havent actually criticised you for liking this book at all.  I responded politely and clearly to the questions you asked and now you are all upset and shouting at me.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 11:20:40 AM by Andromeda »
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3814
    • Clavius
Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #379 on: September 18, 2014, 11:18:36 AM »
My gripe is that you claim I couldn't possibly enjoy it, therefore (by some crappy logic) determined I am in fact the author of the book.

No.  The salient proposition is not that you enjoyed it, but the specific reasons given for why (e.g., the "nicely done" map -- which isn't nicely done at all, but rather clearly the work of someone with little proficiency.)  Burns' habit of vaunting things that are objectively unworthy of it is his hallmark.

Quote
Even someone with basic IT knowledge would know how easy it is to check the IPs of different posters and find that I only have 1 login.

I have much more than basic IT knowledge, and I can attest to how trivially easy it is to make your web traffic appear to come from some other IP address.  Why are you so adamant that we verify your separate identity via IP addressing?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3814
    • Clavius
Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #380 on: September 18, 2014, 11:21:56 AM »
The forum rules state that I must be bothered about every forum users opinion on a random book that's linked? I find that highly unlikely.

The forum rules state what are and are not acceptable topics of discussion in this forum.  Allegations of fact regarding the Apollo missions are admissible.  Other topics are not.  Hence how much you liked this book on grounds having nothing to do with its factual accuracy is not an acceptable topic of discussion here.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Andromeda

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 746
Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #381 on: September 18, 2014, 11:23:18 AM »
I didn't want to give the author pageclicks, FTR.  It says something that this book (and the expanded version, oh wow) are only available from him directly.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline Jason Thompson

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1601
Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #382 on: September 18, 2014, 11:23:52 AM »
Because I don't care?

Then you're on the wrong forum. And you still skirt the main issue, which is that you made a demonstrably wrong statement about the book. It is absolutely NOT impossible to tell if it is true or not. Will you acknowledge that, or will you continue to maintain your position in the face of reality?

Quote
Not sure how the fact you're a professional aerospace engineer has anything to do with what books or categories I chose to like or believe in.

I never said I was an aerospace engineer.

Quote
A number of horror films claim to be 'based on fact'. Do you walk out of the movie the moment that pops up moaning to others that it couldn't possibly be true and they are all sockpuppets to the director?

Burns's book is not claiming to be 'based on fact', it is claiming to be a factual account. If I went to a movie that claimed to be factual and was laden with as many untrue claims and irrelevancies as this book is, I would indeed devote a good deal of time to making sure people knew it was no factual account.

I also, incidentally, have never claimed you were a sockpuppet. Try and keep the individual members of this forum and their arguments clear in your head. Contrary to your claim, we are not all saying the same thing.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Jason Thompson

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1601
Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #383 on: September 18, 2014, 11:26:41 AM »
I accept your apology for insinuating what you did even though you seem to have forgotten to type it out  :-*

Leave that out of the discussion. Andromeda has nothing to apologise to you for.

Quote
I indeed asked for some recommendations. Which you kindly all gave. Not sure why you find it so weird that I didn't follow every single one?

No-one finds it weird that you did not follow every single one. What we find weird is that you appear to have only followed one and completely ignored every other one. Your gushing praise for the book is unconvincing, to say the least. You have already been asked on this thread which other books you actually sought out and read from the recommendations you were given. Do you ever plan to answer that question?

And I'll ask you again, do you still maintain it is impossible to know if it is true or not?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 11:29:07 AM by Jason Thompson »
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3814
    • Clavius
Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #384 on: September 18, 2014, 11:32:15 AM »
So you're insulting my literacy skills?

No, pointing out that a claim of taking a week to read a book that can be easily read in a single one-hour sitting is an anomalous enough story to warrant suspicion.  You have expended considerable bluster trying to make it seem as if everyone is insulting you.  Instead, would you simply be so kind as to explain why it took you a week to read 60 small pages in large type?

Quote
I actually almost became an Accountant too. I guess I should have foreseen this pointless argument and done something else at University. Not sure how whatever Neil Burns does is relevant to who I am but you seem intent on mapping everything I post onto his life no matter how unlikely it seems to fit?

I'm confident letting the readers judge likelihood for themselves.  Burns claims to be an accountant who writes computer programs.  You claim to write computer programs but are also drawn to accounting.  Both of you express an interest in space exploration.  Both seem to have latched upon this book as a "good read."  Burns is obsessed with whether I find the book "entertaining" regardless of its factual claims, and strangely enough that's all you want to talk about too -- its entertainment potential.

Quote
Excuse me for not liking the fact a bunch of random people call me a liar for no other reason that I chose to disagree with them?

That's not the reason.  The reason is that you are ostensibly two people arguing in exactly the same way according to exactly the same peculiar style of argumentation over the same obscure book, to the exclusion of nearly every other topic.  No one is ostracized here for simple disagreement.  The forum exists for no other reason than to discuss and debate the relevant points upon which we disagree.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 11:35:13 AM by JayUtah »
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3814
    • Clavius
Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #385 on: September 18, 2014, 11:55:56 AM »
A discussion is not repeatedly claiming I'm a liar, Illiterate, and someone else in disguise, repeatedly and childishly no matter how many times I state otherwise. You're all attacking me and then feigning 'shock and disgust' when I call you all out on it.

Go back and read the first few pages of this thread where you were given a warm welcome, some friendly advice, references to materials you asked for -- even though we disagree with them -- and a promise for further help.  Can you explain why, after reading those initial posts, you would think that the accuracy and historical validity of books on this subject would not be the principal topic of discussion?

Things deteriorated only when your behavior became suspicious, for the reasons given.  Rather than address those reasons, you respond only with rapidly increasing indignation and by digging in your heels over your right to advocate in this forum any way you feel like it.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline RAF

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 321
Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #386 on: September 18, 2014, 12:11:31 PM »
A discussion is not repeatedly claiming I'm a liar, Illiterate, and someone else in disguise, repeatedly and childishly no matter how many times I state otherwise. You're all attacking me and then feigning 'shock and disgust' when I call you all out on it.

How am I, personally, attacking you?

...all I'm asking is for some reasoning as to why you would believe the ideas in this book, and that is not an attack.

What other excuses do you have for not answering our questions??

...but be aware...we've heard them all...

Offline twik

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 595
Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #387 on: September 18, 2014, 01:16:32 PM »
Excuse me for not liking the fact a bunch of random people call me a liar for no other reason that I chose to disagree with them?

But, well, it's not *impossible* is it? And it's such an entertaining story, to imagine an author creating a sock puppet to shill his book that would linger unsold otherwise.

If you don't like it, perhaps you and Jock (assuming you are two different people) would remember that those in NASA and the aerospace industry don't like having random people call them liars with no evidence either.

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3814
    • Clavius
Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #388 on: September 18, 2014, 02:36:23 PM »
And it's such an entertaining story, to imagine an author creating a sock puppet to shill his book that would linger unsold otherwise.

Indeed, given this poster's indifference to the truth, why should he suddenly care whether stories told about him are true?  Especially if we can make them so very entertaining.  My posts are nicely done, don't you think?  Maybe Skeptic_UK should take a week to read each one.  I guess it's only sometimes okay to drag real people's reputations through the mud for entertainment value!

(Lest Skeptic_UK continue his flurry of indignance, I'll emphasize that all the foregoing is merely illustrative sarcasm and not meant to be taken literally.)

Quote
[T]hose in NASA and the aerospace industry don't like having random people call them liars with no evidence either.

But the U.S. aerospace industry is so very far away from Worcestershire, and populated by faceless people who don't "really" exist.  What harm is there in telling a little ghost story at their expense?

That depends on who you talk to.  I think most people who encounter this book are simply going to laugh at it and ignore it harmlessly.  But if you should happen upon one of the people at whose expense the story is told, and you decide to praise and advocate the book, you can't be surprised by what you think is a disproportionate reaction, nor can you write off any criticism as overly sensitive.

If your garden club likes the book, so be it.  But if you wander into a forum filled with relevant professionals, advocate a book that calls them liars, tell them you're not interested in whether its true -- asserting that no one could determine that:  then you're in for a whole can of whoop-fanny.  And you'd deserve every bit of it.

It's not as if there's no evidence.  The primary evidence is just absurd on its face.  If someone says "The ghost of Pitt the Younger came to me while I was at the laundromat and told me that Otto von Bismarck was a cross-dresser," I really wouldn't care -- even if he swore up and down that it's true.  The claim is, on its face, not credible or consequential.  Few people would likely believe it or treat it as evidence, or care about its implications for history.

But in addition to handwaving about ghosts, Neil Burns also insinuates he has an understanding of space science and engineering superior to those of us here.  From that alleged expertise he can tell us that Apollo in 1969 was impossible.  That is a testable claim, and it's one made in smug (yet cowardly) defiance of the audience here.

We can dismiss golf entirely, as well as accountancy and world travel.  We can dismiss entertainment value as similarly irrelevant.  Ghosts are not considered proof here, so that falls away too.  I've said my piece about whether I think the book has literary appeal.  My opinion is just as acceptable as Skeptic_UK's, and both are -- strictly speaking -- not relevant discussion in this forum.  Hence they both get set aside.

Boiled down to its relevant essence, the book makes testable science and engineering propositions -- lately affirmed by the author -- that Burns says help prove his belief in a hoax.  He has stepped into aerospace engineering territory, insulted its practitioners' competence, accused them of lying about their most laudable achievement, and has now apparently run off back to his counting-house to maintain the delusion that he can continue reaping profits by doing so, without due consequence.  If Skeptic_UK wants to defend that practice, let him try.  If he wants to take up the mantle and argue the relevant sciences, let him try that too.

But no, I really don't feel like tolerating libelous claims against my profession simply because they are, to some people, "entertaining."  And Skeptic_UK apparently wouldn't tolerate it either.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline smartcooky

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1967
Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #389 on: September 18, 2014, 03:56:58 PM »
skeptic_UK
If you make demonstrably wrong statements about a subject, it is just possible that you misunderstand or don't understand that subject. Fair enough.

However if, after having your incorrectness fully explained to you by numerous people who are recognised experts in the aforementioned subject, and who DO understand it, you continue to maintain your position in the face of reality, then that makes you a liar!!!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 04:13:50 PM by smartcooky »
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.