The machines are sentient and they're screwing with us

[Luckmeister]

I am so pissed off and have wasted so much time just trying to make simple things work, that I was not prepared to commit any more time, so saved any data I had put on the HDD, formatted the HDD and reinstalled WinXP pro SP3

And I'm sitting here on my XP reading your post with my Win 8 dark and feeling lonely. I'm only using it for videos and I've had it four months. I still hate it.

[Glom]

Windows 8 might be good for tablets, but that's why they should have made it for tablets and not produced one OS for two very different types of devices.

[Echnaton]

I am hoping Win 8 is like Vista, which really served as a kludgy beta operating system to bridge between XP and Win 7.   IF MS can get this new interface working, Windows can regain much of its lost ground by having the ability to switch back and forth between a tablet and a keyboard driven interface on the same machine.

I don't see Android heading down a path that will make it workable on convertibles by merging with Chromium as being realistic yet.  Chromium is set up for hardware light machines, while full resource machines are so inexpensive and use so much less power today that a full fledged OS seems a better option.    One wonders what Cupertino has in mind for merging Mac OS and iOS?

[Glom]

By all accounts, 8 is the opposite of Vista. As an OS it is good. It's the interface that sucks. Vista on the other hand looked pretty but was shoddy underneath.

Memo: Microsoft don't keep ISO files for Windows 7, the anti-trust bastards. The advisor recommended I download 8 instead. I'm now looking through my old hard drives seeing if I still have it from when I first installed the OS 4 years ago.

[Zakalwe]

I must be one of the only people that likes Windows 8.

I also like Win 8. Its faster than 7 and doesn't seem to crash.
I don't get all the hoo-ha about the missing Start menu....just think of the Tiles as a graphical version of the Start button. Mine also boots to the Desktop so it looks and feels a lot like 7.

[Echnaton]

By all accounts, 8 is the opposite of Vista. As an OS it is good. It's the interface that sucks. Vista on the other hand looked pretty but was shoddy underneath.

In the general view of consumer acceptance, Vista and 8 have a lot in common, albeit for different underlying reasons.  The original 8 interface was so unloved that the updates made major changes and MS dropped the whole OS scheme that accompanied Win 8.  I think they are on the right path of trying to unify the tablet and desktop, it is just that 8 did not do that in a way desktop consumers could accept.   I don't know how they can integrate the ubiquitous ARM processors under the current scheme, but Win RT apparently wasn't it.  I also don't see how they are going to monetize Windows to the extent of the past while Android is being given away.  I hope MS finds a way.  I think they have the potential to contribute to the next gen of computing. 

[LunarOrbit]

I despise Windows 8. After spending hours on my new laptop trying to do what should be relatively simple tasks such as (but not limited to).... 

► Opening two windows on the desktop and dragging files from one to the other (it took me 20 minutes to figure out how to even get to a desktop with icons and a taskbar

► Copying files from the HDD to a Removable drive

A new user interface will take time to learn, and with Windows 8 they didn't do a very good job explaining it. But once you figured out how to do what you wanted, you didn't have to learn it again. So it's a temporary problem.

Once you find the desktop (which is easier with Windows 8.1 because desktop PCs will boot directly to it instead of the Start screen), most tasks will work almost exactly the way they did in earlier versions of Windows. I spend 8+ hours every day working in Windows 8 and hardly ever see the Start screen.

The Start screen makes perfect sense to me. It's basically an advanced Start menu. It has icons (tiles) for my favorite applications (both older desktop apps and the new "metro" apps), and a way to view all of my installed software. That's what the old Start menu did. But with the Start screen the tiles give me information without me even having to start the app. And it offers a touch friendly interface for people who need it.

► Installing software which worked fine on Window XP, but will not work on Windows 8.

Whenever you try to install software intended for a 14 year old OS on a newer OS you are bound to run into compatibility issues. Windows has been pretty good at handling backwards compatibility. Apple made software obsolete when OSX came out.

It also looks like someone decided to let that infernal sodding paper clip from "MS Office" loose in Windows 8.

Do you mean literally the paperclip, or something similar? I've never encountered the paperclip in Windows 8. But the paperclip was a feature of Office, so if you install an old version of Office you'll still get the paperclip. Or do you mean the few brief tutorials intended to explain the new UI?

...and reinstalled WinXP pro SP3

Along with all of it's security vulnerabilities that will never be patched now that MS has stopped supporting it.

I can understand the need to improve the OS, but why on earth do they have to change the look, the feel and the way things operate.

Because the old way doesn't work for touch input. I remember trying old WinXP based tablets years ago, and it was way more difficult than Win8. I imagine it would be even worse on the high resolution screens we use now.

Porsche made huge improvements to their cars between the 1963 - 911 and the 2011 - 991, but the steering wheel and the ABC pedals are still in the same places and work the same way!! They didn't suddenly decide it would be a good idea to randomly swap the pedals around or put the steering wheel on the ceiling!

True, but the way cars are used hasn't really changed, so the UI (the steering wheel, etc.) didn't need to. Now imagine we finally got those flying cars we were promised. Would the same old car UI work in a vehicle that can move in all three dimensions? No, you would need inputs for pitch and roll in addition to the yaw control we have with normal cars.

We're getting touch capable computers and the old desktop UI is no longer adequate. And it's not just for touch input... it also works well for things like TV entertainment systems or business presentations where you point and click using something like a TV remote.

The Win8 "metro" interface isn't perfect, I won't deny that, but I think they were going in the right direction. With Windows 10, from what I've seen so far, it seems like they are taking a step backwards towards catering to the mouse and keyboard, and touch input will suffer. I think it's disappointing that MS caved under the complaints of people who have probably never given Win8 a fair shot (or haven't used it at all).

[Echnaton]

The Win8 "metro" interface isn't perfect, I won't deny that, but I think they were going in the right direction. With Windows 10, from what I've seen so far, it seems like they are taking a step backwards towards catering to the mouse and keyboard, and touch input will suffer. I think it's disappointing that MS caved under the complaints of people who have probably never given Win8 a fair shot (or haven't used it at all).

My understanding is that Win 10 will automatically switch between a mouse and kbd interface to a tablet touch interface when needed.  So if you have one of those convertibles Win 10 will understand how it is configured and work accordingly. That feature was not ready for the recent alpha release but should be out soon.  The main change will be the banning of the metro/modern apps from the desktop, or whatever the full screen only apps were called.  Playing with those on my kids laptops is what soured me on Win 8.  This is supposed to give developers the ability to write apps that make use of the same API calls for desk/ phone and tablet. Again, if it works is a great solution. 

I am going to hang on to my Win 7 system.  I bought the install disk and put it onto a Vista machine, so I might be able to convince MS to let me install it again on a new MB in the same "computer." 

[LunarOrbit]

My understanding is that Win 10 will automatically switch between a mouse and kbd interface to a tablet touch interface when needed.

Yeah, they're calling it "Continuum". But it seems like some of the useful features of the "metro" UI are missing from the Windows 10 preview. For example, in Windows 8 you can split the screen into two (or more, depending on your screen resolution) parts. You can have your regular desktop on one side and your metro Twitter app on the other side. It doesn't sound that impressive... Windows has always separated apps into Windows, right? But in the old Windows UI the apps could overlap each other which can actually be annoying. The split screen feature of Windows 8 means the two sides never interfere with each other. I can watch a video on one side while taking notes on the other side. The note taking app doesn't block the video app or vice versa. If I want the video to take up less space I can change the split ratio by sliding one bar rather than adjusting the sizes of two different windows separately. It works very well.

That doesn't seem to be the case in Windows 10 because the "metro" apps open in windows now, just like regular desktop apps. The split screen feature is missing as far as I can tell.

They have improved the regular desktop window "snap" feature (which was introduced in Windows 7) so that each window can be arranged in a quarter of the desktop space. It is very nice, but it's not as convenient as the Windows 8 split screen because each window has to be resized individually. If I resize one, the others don't adjust automatically. I find that annoying because I don't want the windows overlapping and I don't want to spend time manually adjusting the sizes of the windows.

So if you have one of those convertibles Win 10 will understand how it is configured and work accordingly. That feature was not ready for the recent alpha release but should be out soon.

I have a Surface Pro 3 (I'm writing this on it) and I'm curious about how well the "Continuum" feature will work. If I fold my keyboard back will it act like a tablet, or will it see that the keyboard is still attached and stay in "desktop mode"? I don't know... I just think that the touch friendly UI is useful even on a desktop, so I expect there to be times where Continuum gets it wrong. Time will tell.

The main change will be the banning of the metro/modern apps from the desktop, or whatever the full screen only apps were called.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I think it's actually the opposite. The metro apps aren't going to be banned from the desktop, instead they are going to act like normal windowed desktop apps. Which is not what I want. If I want to watch Netflix, I want it full screen. I don't want it in a window. I don't even want to have to take the extra step to maximize the window into full screen. It's for watching movies, so of course I want it full screen. Of course I don't want there to be title bars or task bars on the screen. I only want to see the movie. That is why I like metro apps for certain "media consumption" roles.

But from what I have seen in Windows 10, the metro apps always open in a window rather than full screen. And even after maximizing them they still have title bars and the taskbar on the screen. It annoys me. I'm hoping it's just because it's an early preview, but since it is the opposite of how they already worked in Windows 8, it seems like this is by design.

Playing with those on my kids laptops is what soured me on Win 8.

The way I see it, there is a purpose for the full screen metro apps (mostly for entertainment and media consumption), and a purpose for traditional desktop apps (content creation). If one suits your needs more than the other, then the option is there to use it. No one is saying you have to use the metro version of Internet Explorer, for example. If you prefer the desktop version then it's still there.

Like I said in another post, I use Windows 8 for work. I spend all day developing websites using Photoshop and Dreamweaver, FTPing, and working with MySQL databases. My favorite apps are pinned to the task bar, so I rarely see the Start screen. The only metro app I use at work is one for accessing internet radio stations. So I don't see the traditional desktop UI going away any time soon, but I do appreciate the metro UI too.

[ka9q]

You guys ever thought about OSX? Or Linux?

[LunarOrbit]

I have a Mac Mini but I don't use it much because the software I need for work is on my PC (and I can't afford to buy Photoshop twice). I do like it though.

I used Linux years ago, but haven't found a reason to use it full time.

[Echnaton]

LO, I see you are well adapted to Win8.  At the release of Win 8.0 was more work for me to learn the new interface than to stay with a proven easy machine.  Like Vista but for different reasons, Win 8 seems to have gotten a reputation from the start for being difficult for casual or less technical production users that it could never shake.  And the improvements of 8.1 Update, or whatever clunky name it is called, came too late for me to want to invest my time.  Like you I am hoping MS gets Continuum working and it is as intelligent as it needs to be.

One of MS's biggest problems is that its operating systems are so good that people can hang on to them for a very long time.  Far past the official useful life. And unlike the bad old days of the PC, a five year old computer is still completely useful for what most people purchased it for.   

You guys ever thought about OSX? Or Linux?

I have toyed with Linux and even had one set up as an alternate server a secondary backup manager at work.  But I never could get comfortable enough with networking in a mixed Linux/Windows environment to be sure it would be available when needed. 

I switched the company to cloud backups for secondary recovery, our needs are very modest.  At the same time I provisioned a older computer to look just like the server and turned it off.  It just sits there waiting until it is needed, at which point I can copy files and we will be on our way.   

I used Macs occasionally before they switched to the Unix type OS.  Great computers and easy to use.  I have too many programs that are Win only and my wife and I share computers sometimes.  So there is a significant interoperability constraint to deal with. 

[Echnaton]

Some how all this talk of replacing computers and OSs must have struck a nerve with my home machine.  The little beggar just reached out on its own and found a way to turn on the USB.  I saw the searching for a driver notice and my USB hard drive appeared again.  Now if I could just get over this nagging fear that all these little black wires are going to join together one day soon to rise up and choke me.....

[cjameshuff]

I hope MS finds a way.  I think they have the potential to contribute to the next gen of computing.

With their past contributions including such gems as IE6 and Windows itself, I for one have absolutely no problem with the idea of a next gen of computing with fewer contributions from MS.

I use OS X and Linux (typically Linux Mint) when I can, with a practically identical workflow on each...text editors (Sublime Text these days) and terminal windows. I can approximate that on Windows, but the Windows terminal sucks, the approximations of Unix-like environments are rather flawed, and the native development environments are clumsy, expensive, non-standard, etc. And clang, my favored compiler, is only starting to become usable.

[ka9q]

I used Macs occasionally before they switched to the Unix type OS.  Great computers and easy to use.  I have too many programs that are Win only and my wife and I share computers sometimes.  So there is a significant interoperability constraint to deal with.

It's actually quite easy to run other operating systems (e.g, Windows, Linux) within virtual machine environments on OSX. Some of them, like VirtualBox, are even free.