JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots

[ka9q]

That's a very good question. The video that got pulled was titled "Reply to Jesse Ventura - JFK 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano rifle myths". It contains no other mention of any other living person. The commentary around it is highly critical of Ventura's claim that he could not reproduce the three shots of the assassination, but I saw nothing that wasn't typical of open American debate involving controversial public figures like Ventura.

So Youtube apparently responds to complaints of harassment just as they do to complaints of copyright violations: by presuming the complaint is valid and yanking the video in question, sight unseen. And it would seem that conspiracy nuts take full advantage of this loophole to censor their opponents.

I kept a copy of the video in question and would be happy to provide it on request. It really is an excellent refutation of the top 10 myths about the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle by someone who owns and shoots one.

[Chew]

Please post it! I saw it a while ago and it is very good.

[ka9q]

Here you go:

http://www.ka9q.net/Reply%20to%20Jesse%20Ventura_%20JFK%206.5%20Mannlicher%20Carcano%20rifle%20myths%20-%20YouTube.mp4

If you have trouble with this URL, try

http://www.ka9q.net/mag30th.mp4

It's a link to the other one.

[Chew]

Thanks.

[profmunkin]

This is how it's done.
We are told Oswald claimed he ate lunch in the Domino Room with Jarmin and Norman.
But Jarmin and Norman say they did not eat with Oswald or talk with Oswald during lunch.
But
Jarmin is never asked if he saw Oswald in the lunch room, during lunch.
Norman is never asked if during lunch he saw Oswald in the Domino room.

So the only conclusion you can draw from this goo is that Oswald wasn't there, truth be told you can't really know for sure.
If Oswald claimed this to be his defence, why were Jarmin and Norman not specifically asked if they saw Oswald in the Domino Room?
Wonder why they didn't ask ? .. Now You can never know.

[profmunkin]

Here you go:

Myth#1 stiff bolt, check out the video, bolt sticks on third cartridge.
Myth#2 can't fire faster than 1.8 sec, not important unless your speed shooting. It is fire, recycle, aim then fire, recycle, aim then fire, all the time firing at a crossing, dropping, receding target.
Myth#3 Inaccurate, no no no, it was the scope that was not accurate per WC expert.
Myth#4 Could not fit rifle into bag, no again, it was that an unassembled rifle could not fit between Oswald's palm and his armpit.
Myth#5 who cares

[Chew]

Here you go:

Myth#1 stiff bolt, check out the video, bolt sticks on third cartridge.

Yeah, you pick out 1 out of 12 and ignore the other 11 that cycled flawlessly. It stuck for about a tenth of a second.

Myth#2 can't fire faster than 1.8 sec, not important unless your speed shooting. It is fire, recycle, aim then fire, recycle, aim then fire, all the time firing at a crossing, dropping, receding target.

Yep. But given how fast the bolt has been shown to be operable the recycle is the least of the problem.

Myth#3 Inaccurate, no no no, it was the scope that was not accurate per WC expert.

By what? 4 inches at 75 yards?

And you're being disingenuous again. The alleged inaccuracy of the MC is a HUGE claim of the CT crowd, so much so they invent stories about Italian soldiers abandoning the MC on the battlefield.

Myth#4 Could not fit rifle into bag, no again, it was that an unassembled rifle could not fit between Oswald's palm and his armpit.

Frazier said he wasn't sure how Oswald was caring it. He said he didn't pay attention.

Myth#5 who cares

You do, because it is part of the timing problem of getting Oswald from the first floor at the start of lunch to the sixth floor in time to assemble the rifle.

[profmunkin]

By what? 4 inches at 75 yards?


You do, because it is part of the timing problem of getting Oswald from the first floor at the start of lunch to the sixth floor in time to assemble the rifle.

"Mr. LUTZ. The accuracy is fairly undependable, as far as once getting the rifle sighted in and it is very cheaply made, the scope itself has a crosshair reticle that is subject to movement or being capable of being dislodged from dropping, from impact, or a very sharp recoil. So the accuracy would be somewhat questionable for this particular type of a scope."

Williams leaves the 6th floor about 12:20 and takes East elevator to 5th floor.
At 12:20 Oswald runs up the stairs, gets the gun from somewhere and is ready to shoot by 12:30

You do understand the "timing problem" then.

[profmunkin]

Myth#4 Could not fit rifle into bag, no again, it was that an unassembled rifle could not fit between Oswald's palm and his armpit.

Frazier said he wasn't sure how Oswald was caring it. He said he didn't pay attention.

Sound like Frazier remembered exactly how Oswald was carring the "curtain rods".

"Mr. BALL - You mean one end of it under the armpit?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under your arm like that.
Mr. BALL - And he had the lower part--
Mr. FRAZIER - The other part with his right hand.
Mr. BALL - Right hand?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - He carried it then parallel to his body?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right, straight up and down.
Representative FORD - Under his right arm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. "

This could not be done with a disassembled Carcano rifle.

[Chew]

By what? 4 inches at 75 yards?


You do, because it is part of the timing problem of getting Oswald from the first floor at the start of lunch to the sixth floor in time to assemble the rifle.

"Mr. LUTZ. The accuracy is fairly undependable, as far as once getting the rifle sighted in and it is very cheaply made, the scope itself has a crosshair reticle that is subject to movement or being capable of being dislodged from dropping, from impact, or a very sharp recoil. So the accuracy would be somewhat questionable for this particular type of a scope."

Why quote someone speculating when you have the testimony of FBI firearms expert Frazier who actually fired the weapon and measured the dispersion?

Williams leaves the 6th floor about 12:20 and takes East elevator to 5th floor.
At 12:20 Oswald runs up the stairs, gets the gun from somewhere and is ready to shoot by 12:30

He had to be ready to shoot by 12:25 actually. That is the time the motorcade was expected to pass by the TSBD. Oswald had no idea the motorcade was running 5 minutes late.

You do understand the "timing problem" then.

I understand there is no problem. Long before lunch Oswald was seen moving boxes in the southeast corner of the 6th floor. He constructed the sniper's nest before he broke for lunch.

[Chew]

Myth#4 Could not fit rifle into bag, no again, it was that an unassembled rifle could not fit between Oswald's palm and his armpit.

Frazier said he wasn't sure how Oswald was caring it. He said he didn't pay attention.

Sound like Frazier remembered exactly how Oswald was carring the "curtain rods".

Sure, if you stop reading there.

Mr. BALL - Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.

This could not be done with a disassembled Carcano rifle.

It also couldn't be done with curtain rods. And he didn't need curtain rods because his room already had them. And he told the police he didn't bring curtain rods to work; he told them he brought a paper bag with his lunch to work.

[profmunkin]

Sure, if you stop reading there.

Mr. BALL - Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.

This means nothing.
He already testified unequivocally he saw Oswald carry this package under his arm in the palm of this hand.

[Chew]

Sure, if you stop reading there.

Mr. BALL - Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.

This means nothing.
He already testified unequivocally he saw Oswald carry this package under his arm in the palm of this hand.

Again, only if you read what you quoted. Later on in his testimony he stated it a second time that he wasn't paying attention.

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on how he carried the package at all.

Are you going to address the fact that Oswald's boarding room already had curtain rods? Or that he lied to the police about what he brought to work that day? Or that the curtain rods Oswald claimed he brought to work that day were never found in the TSBD?

[ka9q]

This is why it's so frustrating to debate a conspiracy theorist. They seem to forget that we can easily get the full transcripts ourselves so we can easily see when it's being cherry-picked and critical caveats are being left out.

Frazier repeatedly said that he wasn't paying much attention to Oswald's "curtain rod" package. And he said that while in the past he and Oswald had always walked into the building together, Friday morning Oswald walked quickly with the package ahead of Frazier into the TSBD -- an obvious attempt to keep Frazier from seeing it too closely.

I really get the impression that the conspiracy theorists take full advantage of our natural human tendency to give others the benefit of the doubt. When they quote the testimony, it is natural (and simply easier) to assume they have quoted it accurately and in context. But I've been burned enough times to realize that we cannot take anything a conspiracy theorist says for granted. Everything must be verified.

[Echnaton]

Now You can never know.

This is the ultimate tactic of conspiracy theorist.  Just raise enough doubt to make the conspiracy seem possible.  Then move directly to declare the conspiracy as proven. 

Your dodge won't work here.