JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots

[profmunkin]

This is motive, which make the CIA suspect.

I didn't ask for speculation, I asked for proof. I'm beginning to wonder if you know the meaning of the word.

I'll repeat: just because someone had a motive to commit murder doesn't mean they're guilty. You might as well say that Jackie Kennedy is a suspect because she was upset that her husband cheated on her. Soon your list of suspects will be so long that you can't rule anyone out and you'll be even further from solving the case than you were before you started investigating it.

If Jackie had been seen to have violent arguements with Jack and Jack had told his friends that if he were to die suddenly to consider Jackie as the prime suspect. YES look at Jackie.


There are connections such as CIA camp was connected to Guy Banister which is connected to Oswald   

Actually there is enough known right now about the conspiracy, the case has been solved.
What is missing is details of the assassination, which may never be known because of all of the manipulation of much of the evidence.

[twik]

I wonder how many examples of things (or even people, as plenty of real film of such exists) being shot and not being blasted backwards by the impact of the bullet one has to provide before JFK conspiracy theorists will finally concede that physics does not support the idea that a head being blown backwards and to the left could be caused by a bullet entering from the front right....

Then show me the phisics that supports JFK being thrown violently backward toward the path from where the bullet came and to the side

[Chew]

(Oh, and I assume that if you believe in "deflection" of bullets, you have no problem with accepting that the path of the bullet through JFK into Connolly was well within possibilities. Certainly more possible than a high-powered rifle shot from the side deflecting inside a cranium and exiting the back of the head.)

http://dolk.host.sk/dolkpage96/horror/famosos/jfk2.htm
this link lead to the autopsy sheet on JFK
once you validate this as evidence, you can explain to me how a bullet traveling at a downward angle, hits JFK's back, deflets upward to exit about 6" higher from his throat, then deflects downward into Connelly, which is another story.

It didn't. Autopsy face sheets aren't drawn to scale. The autopsy report itself describes the location of the back wound in relation to other anatomical features: http://www.awesomestories.com/media/user/14d3199a9e.pdf third page, second paragraph.

[Jason Thompson]

Then show me the phisics that supports JFK being thrown violently backward toward the path from where the bullet came and to the side

You really have missed the point entirely, haven't you? Demonstrations of such have been provided, and even cited here in this discussion. The physics is simple: a bullet enters the back of the skull, deforms, creates a pressure wave in the more fluid brian matter, and blows a large hole out the front of the skull. The forceful ejection of bone and brain matter from the exit wound provides the force that causes the head to move back in accordance with Newton's thrid law. This is the same principle on which rockets work. And this still leaves aside the fact that the brain is what drives muscle contraction, and damage to the brain may easily cause muscle spasms such as that required to snap the head back. Combine the two.

The point remains, however, that physics and the way bullets are designed to work categorically refutes the notion that a man shot in the head from in front with a rifle would have his head violently forced back by the impact of the bullet. Bullets are designed to penetrate, not push.

[gillianren]

OK here is One of as many as you want.
page 44
Garrisons is talking about a CIA camp that was near Lake Pontchartrain that had been raided by the FBI.
The camp "was preparing for future CIA-sponsored attacks on Cuba, "  That "the FBI raid came in response to pressure from President Kennedy who wanted the bureau to stop the CIA's undending violations of the Neutrality Act."

Okay, first off, you really have to understand a few things about motive.  While motive is one of the things considered in an investigation, it isn't sufficient evidence.  Would Jackie have really been a prime suspect if she'd been having violent arguments with her husband?  No.  The prime suspect would have been the person with the means and opportunity, and the situation in which JFK was killed was not one in which Jackie had either, unless you could demonstrate that she had, for example, paid Oswald (or suspect of your choice) to do it.  Jackie physically could not have been the killer, because there was definitive evidence that she wasn't where the shots were fired from unless those shots were fired from inside the car.  Motive comes up a lot in trials because juries like to believe that people do things for a reason, but the prosecution has no legal obligation to show one.

But okay, let's look at your Garrison garbage.  My first question is, does he have a source for that?  Because Kennedy never much stopped the CIA from attacks on Castro.  We know the CIA continued assassination attempts for literally decades after Kennedy's death, so why assume that they were more successful in an attempt on JFK?  You do know that's the longest-running joke on the subject, right?  ("How do we know the CIA didn't kill Kennedy?"  "Well, he's dead, isn't he?")  But more to the point, if Garrison claimed it was a CIA camp, that is untrue.  It was anti-Castro Cubans, and they were raided largely because they were non-citizens training in guerrilla warfare, and that kind of thing makes the government uneasy.

[Halcyon Dayz, FCD]

Kennedy was a Cold Warrior to the bone.

Just smarter then most.

[twik]

(Oh, and I assume that if you believe in "deflection" of bullets, you have no problem with accepting that the path of the bullet through JFK into Connolly was well within possibilities. Certainly more possible than a high-powered rifle shot from the side deflecting inside a cranium and exiting the back of the head.)

http://dolk.host.sk/dolkpage96/horror/famosos/jfk2.htm
this link lead to the autopsy sheet on JFK
once you validate this as evidence, you can explain to me how a bullet traveling at a downward angle, hits JFK's back, deflets upward to exit about 6" higher from his throat, then deflects downward into Connelly, which is another story.

It didn't. Autopsy face sheets aren't drawn to scale. The autopsy report itself describes the location of the back wound in relation to other anatomical features: http://www.awesomestories.com/media/user/14d3199a9e.pdf third page, second paragraph.

No one who argues that the "magic bullet" couldn't have made the wounds has ever explained how Kennedy was shot in the back, Connally was shot in the back, they were sitting one in front of the other, and yet two separate bullets managed to hit each of them in such a manner.

[profmunkin]

It didn't. Autopsy face sheets aren't drawn to scale. The autopsy report itself describes the location of the back wound in relation to other anatomical features: http://www.awesomestories.com/media/user/14d3199a9e.pdf third page, second paragraph.

Back wound "Upper right posterior thorax" where exactly is this bullet hole?

[Echnaton]

It didn't. Autopsy face sheets aren't drawn to scale. The autopsy report itself describes the location of the back wound in relation to other anatomical features: http://www.awesomestories.com/media/user/14d3199a9e.pdf third page, second paragraph.

Back wound "Upper right posterior thorax" where exactly is this bullet hole?

Apparently in Kennedy's back, two inches below the crease of his neck.  Just behind the holes in his jacket and shirt.

[Chew]

It didn't. Autopsy face sheets aren't drawn to scale. The autopsy report itself describes the location of the back wound in relation to other anatomical features: http://www.awesomestories.com/media/user/14d3199a9e.pdf third page, second paragraph.

Back wound "Upper right posterior thorax" where exactly is this bullet hole?

It says where it is in the autopsy report!

[Jason Thompson]

Back wound "Upper right posterior thorax" where exactly is this bullet hole?

Keep reading and it tells you exactly where that bullet hole is. It's close to the top edge of the scapula, pretty close to the inside 'corner' of that bone. A location, incidentally, that places it slightly above the exit wound in the front of the throat, especially when you consider Kennedy's slightly slouched position in the car as he was sitting in it.

[profmunkin]

[Apparently in Kennedy's back, two inches below the crease of his neck.  Just behind the holes in his jacket and shirt.

Referencing David Lifton book ' Best Evidence' has autopsy photos
Are these photos igitimate evidence?

[Echnaton]

[Apparently in Kennedy's back, two inches below the crease of his neck.  Just behind the holes in his jacket and shirt.

Referencing David Lifton book ' Best Evidence' has autopsy photos
Are these photos igitimate evidence?

Once again, your claim, your proof.  You want to put the book forward as reliable, tell us why you think so.

[Kiwi]

...the evidence in support of the fatal head shot coming from the front is overwhelming... Witnesses that described the shot to JFK said a cloud of wound debris flew back and to the left.

Warning:  Gory details which some people might prefer to not read.

Going back to this one, Profmunkin, have you examined frames 313 to 316 of the Zapruder film? 

Frame 313 shows a large red cloud forward of JFK's face and obscuring Jackie's face.  Above it and slightly to its rear is a whitish cloud.  In a full-frame version you can see what looks like the trail of something which appears yellow against the green grass and is flying upward and forward in a straight line, about 15 degrees from vertical.  It seems to pulse four to six times in the one frame, indicating it may be of irregular shape and rotating swiftly.  Being visible in only two dimensions, it could be flying parallel to the car, toward the camera, or away from the camera, but it certainly appears to be moving forward.  It is also visible on page 108 of the Warren Report.

In frame 314 the red cloud has subsided substantially, but the white one is still visible although it has dispersed a little, and there is a hint of the yellow object a little higher than in 313, but still travelling in the same upward, straight and forward direction.

Frame 315 shows the white cloud dispersing further and there is a yellowish object higher still, almost in line with the spectator's feet, although this could also be one of the many artifacts on the film.

Frame 316 shows the white cloud dispersed even more.

This sequence, which would have occurred in about four-eighteenths or 0.22 of a second, could indeed be showing the effects of a shot from the rear and not from Zapruder's right, which, as has been pointed out, would possibly have hit Jackie.

The frames can be viewed, numbered and uncropped, in the Medio Multimedia CD-ROM "J.F.K. Assassination - A Visual Investigation" (1993 - made for Windows 3.1).  They can also be seen unnumbered and cropped, so the yellow object isn't shown, in the part-fictional movie JFK, at around 2:34:37, chapter 36, in the 3:01:06 copy of the film, when Costner does his "back and to the left" thing.

[Kiwi]

Back wound "Upper right posterior thorax" where exactly is this bullet hole?

Is the Warren Report no help at all?  Pages 87 and 88:

The President's Neck Wounds

During the autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital another bullet wound was observed near the base of the back of President Kennedy's neck slightly to the right of his spine which provides further enlightenment as to the source of the shots. The hole was located approximately

Page 88

5 1/2 inches (14 centimeters) from the tip of the right shoulder joint and approximately the same distance below the tip of the right mastoid process, the bony point immediately behind the ear.162 The wound was approximately one-fourth by one-seventh of an inch (7 by 4 millimeters), had clean edges, was sharply delineated, and had margins similar in all respects to those of the entry wound in the skull.163 Commanders Humes and Boswell agreed with Colonel Finck's testimony that this hole--

... is a wound of entrance... The basis for that conclusion is that this wound was relatively small with clean edges. It was not a jagged wound, and that is what we see in wound of entrance at a long range.164

The autopsy examination further disclosed that, after entering the President, the bullet passed between two large muscles, produced a contusion on the upper part of the pleural cavity (without penetrating that cavity), bruised the top portion of the right lung and ripped the windpipe (trachea) in its path through the President's neck.165 The examining surgeons concluded that the wounds were caused by the bullet rather than the tracheotomy performed at Parkland Hospital. The nature of the bruises indicated that the President's heart and lungs were functioning when the bruises were caused, whereas there was very little circulation in the President's body when incisions on the President's chest were made to insert tubes during the tracheotomy.166 No bone was struck by the bullet which passed through the President's body.167 By projecting from a point of entry on the rear of the neck and proceeding at a slight downward angle through the bruised interior portions, the doctors concluded that the bullet exited from the front portion of the President's neck that had been cut away by the tracheotomy.168