Author Topic: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots  (Read 604563 times)

Offline Echnaton

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #180 on: April 23, 2012, 01:31:20 PM »
And http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/the_critics/griffith/Ballistics_and_head_wounds.html

From your link
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It is interesting to note that although Dr. Olivier fired bullets into 10 skulls, he only cited one skull as having an exit wound that was at all similar in location and size to the large exit wound described by the autopsy doctors.
 
It is interesting to note that the test cited in an attempt to discredit the autopsy confirmed the plausibility of one conclusion of the autopsy report.

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As a matter of fact, most of the resulting exit wounds were in the frontal area--they shattered bones in the forehead area (Menninger 84). Bear in mind, too, that the Commission's exit wound was different from the one later proposed by the HSCA, and from the one described in detail by the Dallas doctors and nurses who treated the President at Parkland Hospital immediately after the shooting. The Parkland doctors and nurses reported seeing a large wound in the right rear part of the head, strongly indicating a shot from the front. And, thanks in part to newly released HSCA interview files, we now know that witness after witness at the autopsy told Committee investigators that the large wound was in back of the head.


I'll assume that this is the most compelling evidence you have and that you plan on defending this, instead of walking way as you have on other occasions.   Without even going into the accuracy of the reporting here. 

Your assignment, Promunkin, whether or not you choose to accept it is to,

(1)tell us why the opinions presented here are sufficiently divergent as to rule out the conclusion that the bullet was fired from the SBD.  Such as why the opinions of  emergency room doctors and nurses should outweigh that of the pathologist.  Include in your analysis how those opinions could have been well formed by a group of people who were focused on providing emergency treatment.  Also please include the opinions of the same people on the locations of the entry and exit wounds of the back shot.  Since that will show if they can be used to support your theory that both shots came from the front. If such opnions are nto available state the extent of your research.

(2)tell us why the conclusions of the HSCA report a decade and a half later should be taken to be of such importance relative to the autopsy report that it shows the autopsy to be fraudulent while drawing the same conclusion as the WC.   Why do you rely on the HSCA report in one regard while dismissing its conclusion?

The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline Echnaton

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #181 on: April 23, 2012, 01:38:40 PM »
And did you notice that any shots from the Grassy Knoll would not have Hit JFK front on, but more from up and to the side?  Which still leaves open the question of what happens to the bullet? Since the head shot didn't hit Jackie or the limo, what happened to it.  And please don't try the magic bullet trajectory of making a sharp ricochet and exit at the back of the head without citing a source that provides a detailed, expert analysis.
Most likely a frangible missile, it broke up into a score of fragments, it liquefied right half of the Presidents brain as it bore thru exploding out the back side of his head....I don't understand the ballistics as to angle of attack and results, but there is no doubt that there was massive damage to the back right side of JFK's head.

Your contention about the bullet is nothing more than supposition, and you admit you do not understand the ballistics, but still maintain a conclusion that requires knowledge of both of these items.  Does this appear to be a reasonable and serious contribution to that would lead anyone to reject the analysis that the bullet was fired from the SBD. 
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #182 on: April 23, 2012, 01:47:24 PM »
Before we can seriously discuss how the wounds were made, lets establish the FACT that the autopsy report given to the WC is a fabrication.

Yes, why don't you do that.
Lets see
Testimony from witnesses to the assassination is not persuasive
Testimony from Doctors and Nurses at Parkland is not persuasive
Testimony from witnesses present at Bethesda autopsy is not persuasive
Experts review of the evidence does not have an impact

 

Offline gillianren

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #183 on: April 23, 2012, 01:55:10 PM »
Before we can seriously discuss how the wounds were made, lets establish the FACT that the autopsy report given to the WC is a fabrication.

Yes, why don't you do that.
Lets see
Testimony from witnesses to the assassination is not persuasive
Testimony from Doctors and Nurses at Parkland is not persuasive
Testimony from witnesses present at Bethesda autopsy is not persuasive
Experts review of the evidence does not have an impact

 

Your argument is not persuasive.  You really don't understand how presenting evidence works, do you?
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #184 on: April 23, 2012, 02:12:45 PM »
Before we can seriously discuss how the wounds were made, lets establish the FACT that the autopsy report given to the WC is a fabrication.

Yes, why don't you do that.
Lets see
Testimony from witnesses to the assassination is not persuasive
Testimony from Doctors and Nurses at Parkland is not persuasive
Testimony from witnesses present at Bethesda autopsy is not persuasive
Experts review of the evidence does not have an impact

 

It would be your interpretation of the evidence into a compelling theory of actions that would be a persuasive argument that the autopsy is a fabrication. A argument that should also include professionals with relevant qualifications agreeing the at the report was fabricated.    Including direct statements by at least some of your "witnesses."

One reason for an expert review of evidence is to make sense of the normal contradictions that occur within eye witness testimony. 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 02:38:23 PM by Echnaton »
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline Echnaton

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #185 on: April 23, 2012, 02:35:05 PM »
Speaking of normal contradictions.  I'd always assumed the "grassy knoll"  to be the area near the picket fence, which was to the right front, since that is where most CTs seem to place the shooter. Yet the term originated from an AP reporter Merriman Smith within 25 minutes after Kennedy was shot.  The wire service release based on Smiths phoned in statement, "Some of the Secret Service agents thought the gunfire was from an automatic weapon fired to the right rear of the president's car, probably from a grassy knoll to which police rushed."

So I suppose it all depends on whose grassy knoll we are referring to. 

Right rear is of completely consistent with Oswald as the gunman.  Interestingly Smiths initial report was dispatched within four minutes of the event, "Three shots were fired at President Kennedy's motorcade today in downtown Dallas."  Not the six Profmunkin claims.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 02:58:15 PM by Echnaton »
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #186 on: April 23, 2012, 02:48:38 PM »
Another post on this.

Experts review of the evidence does not have an impact

Compared to say...your conspiratist review of the evidence.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #187 on: April 23, 2012, 05:36:24 PM »
In Jesse Curry 'Retired Dallas police chief, Jesse Curry reveals his personal JFK assassination file'

He has a picture of the slug from Gov. Connally, it is about the size of a dime.

You can see it along with other evidence from Jesse Curry's book in you tube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLDC3F3C0BF9D48CC7&v=un2Q3sO7Xbk&feature=player_detailpage

The reason I am jumping back to this issue is Jesse Curry supports the slug found in operating room given to nurse Bell...given to Nolan given to FBI.   

I will address other issues posted as I continue to research.

Offline ka9q

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #188 on: April 23, 2012, 08:03:33 PM »
Are you ever going to stay on one point and see it through, or are you going to keep playing Gish Gallop?

Does your movement from topic to topic indicate a realization that each previous topic is, in fact, not a very strong one for your case?

Offline ka9q

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #189 on: April 23, 2012, 08:11:03 PM »
Most likely a frangible missile, it broke up into a score of fragments
Even "frangible missiles" obey the laws of physics. They keep moving in the same direction at constant velocity until acted upon by an external force. When they break up, it's because of an outside force. When they change direction, it's because of an outside force.

Even worse for your theory is that Oswald's ammunition (and the bullet remains found) were all of the full-metal-jacketed military type, exactly the opposite of "frangible ammunition" (which has long been banned from warfare by international treaty).

Had Oswald used even a normal hollow-point lead hunting bullet, the damage to JFK's head would have been even more extensive. This has been shown very convincingly by actual shooting tests on realistic models of the human head, e.g., in the Discovery Channel program "Inside the Target Car". The target completely exploded because all of the bullet energy was released inside it so quickly. Had a "frangible bullet" been used on JFK, exactly the same thing would have happened.

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #190 on: April 23, 2012, 08:46:04 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5ATbhCUZxjQ

Hey I am sorry about this "gish golly" but as I search for information to properly answer some of your questions I run across more interesting information that supports my earlier posts.

The 3 tramps as it turns out were never booked anywhere, no record can be found of who these guys were.
Take a look at the attached video, Col. Fletcher Prouty discusses photos of Dealey Plaza.

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #191 on: April 23, 2012, 08:51:01 PM »

Your argument is not persuasive.  You really don't understand how presenting evidence works, do you?

Sorry I am not any good at this.

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #192 on: April 23, 2012, 09:08:46 PM »
Hey I am sorry about this "gish golly" but as I search for information to properly answer some of your questions I run across more interesting information that supports my earlier posts.

You haven't found any information that supports your earlier posts. In fact some of the websites you have linked to actually contradict you.

For example:

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The 3 tramps as it turns out were never booked anywhere, no record can be found of who these guys were.

This site identifies the 3 tramps:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/3tramps.htm

Do you recognize that site? You linked to it in reply #157 of this thread. It identifies the 3 tramps and provides their arrest records.

Harold Doyle
View his arrest record.
Download high resolution version for printing.

John Forrester Gedney
View his arrest record.
Download high resolution version for printing.

Gus W. Abrams
View his arrest record.
Download high resolution version for printing.

Now, do you wish to retract your claim that the 3 tramps were never identified?
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #193 on: April 23, 2012, 09:10:46 PM »
By the way, Profmunkin, I'm waiting for an answer to this question.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline profmunkin

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #194 on: April 23, 2012, 11:09:43 PM »

Now, do you wish to retract your claim that the 3 tramps were never identified?
Looks like might have to, I would like to do some digging first.
Thanks for the links.

Check out this Youtube video it you haven't already
Ed Lansdale in Dealey Plaza Nov 22 1963
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5ATbhCUZxjQ