Author Topic: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots  (Read 604575 times)

Offline ka9q

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #405 on: May 12, 2012, 12:09:24 AM »
I am not a religious person, but if I had the usual beliefs I would be convinced that down in hell Lee Harvey Oswald is laughing his head off at how many gullible people he has managed to fool for nearly 50 years now.

"I said I was a patsy and they actually believed me!"


Offline gillianren

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #406 on: May 12, 2012, 02:59:33 AM »
Actually, I'm inclined the other way.  I think conspiracism is Lee's punishment.  After all, he really wanted to be important.  It's what he wanted most of all.  And yet it's generally agreed by an awful lot of people that he simply wasn't important enough to do the one thing he thought would make people pay attention to him.  If Lee is aware of what is happening here on Earth, he's furious.
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #407 on: May 12, 2012, 11:19:01 AM »
Life on earth was Oswald's hell.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline twik

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #408 on: May 12, 2012, 11:58:09 AM »
Actually, I'm inclined the other way.  I think conspiracism is Lee's punishment.  After all, he really wanted to be important.  It's what he wanted most of all.  And yet it's generally agreed by an awful lot of people that he simply wasn't important enough to do the one thing he thought would make people pay attention to him.  If Lee is aware of what is happening here on Earth, he's furious.

I agree - the "patsy" comment was, I think, his way of setting himself up as a martyr for communism like the Rosenbergs, simultaneously a persecuted innocent and a soldier of the cause. Under the conspiracists, Oswald has effectively disappeared as a human being.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 05:23:41 PM by twik »

Offline gillianren

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #409 on: May 12, 2012, 12:40:28 PM »
Life on earth was Oswald's hell.

Lee's life on Earth was Marina's Hell.
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #410 on: May 12, 2012, 02:24:51 PM »
Life on earth was Oswald's hell.

Lee's life on Earth was Marina's Hell.
No doubt.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline Not Myself

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #411 on: May 12, 2012, 03:23:25 PM »
It didn't take long for me to realize the various CT theories were almost all pure bunk.

You just lack the predisposition to believe :)

I just can't understand how anyone who has really looked at the (credible) evidence could come to any other conclusion than that LHO killed JFK, and then killed Tippit, at least beyond any reasonable doubt.

That's certainly my impression.

I think the only CT argument that could be made is that Oswald was working for or with someone else; and there is simply no credible evidence of this either, not to mention Lee's biography seems to indicate he wasn't one to play well with others.

It's going to be impossible to disprove that possibility categorically, but I've got to agree - if you want to kill the president of the United States, I'm not sure Lee Harvey Oswald is someone you'd want on your team.

The non-falsifiability of the hypothesis is a bit of a bugger though.

The mentality that absence of a simple, immediately obvious explanation for something somehow "proves" whatever conclusion one is inclined to reach seems to be behind a lot of the CTs, although this sort of thinking is certainly not limited to CTs.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 03:35:56 PM by Coelacanth »
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Offline ka9q

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #412 on: May 13, 2012, 07:04:16 AM »
Here's an intriguing question to which we'll never know the answer: Where was Oswald headed when he encountered Officer Tippit?

Somewhere (from Posner's Case Closed?) I heard this halfway plausible hypothesis: if he was headed anywhere at all, it was back to the Cuban consulate in Mexico City. Uncle Fidel would finally realize just how important Oswald really was and just how foolish he'd been to reject Oswald's previous offer of his services. He'd be bursting with gratitude for the huge blow Oswald had just struck for his Revolution. Why, he'd get down on his knees and beg Oswald to come to Cuba and take his rightful place by his side.

I think Oswald had enough cash on him for the bus trip.

Had Oswald not shot Tippit and been quickly arrested for it, the police would still have quickly traced his rifle and identified Oswald as their prime suspect. The world would have known it within hours. So can you imagine the look on the faces of the Cuban consular officials had Oswald strolled back in their door a week after the assassination?

Oswald may have been a delusional, self-important nutjob but Castro wasn't suicidal. The Cubans would have reacted like Oswald was made of high-level nuclear waste.

Offline twik

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #413 on: May 13, 2012, 10:13:21 AM »
That is indeed plausible, since Oswald had romanticized Cuba as his ideal revolutionary spot. Of course, it may be that Oswald really hadn't thought it through to the point of "... and after the shooting, I will ...."

Offline Chew

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #414 on: May 13, 2012, 10:30:18 AM »
Oswald heard the motorcade would drive by the TSBD on Wednesday. He no doubt knew his odds of making a clean getaway were slim but I think the opportunity to become famous overrode that.

Offline Not Myself

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #415 on: May 13, 2012, 11:30:01 AM »
The Cubans would have reacted like Oswald was made of high-level nuclear waste.

That's my guess as well.  But I suppose short of finding a letter from Havana that says, "In the event Lee Harvey Oswald assassinates Kennedy and asks for asylum, turn him down", I guess we'll never know for sure :)
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Offline gillianren

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #416 on: May 13, 2012, 01:19:09 PM »
I'm not sure Oswald was really thinking at all by that point.  After all, while he may have had the money (I'm not sure, either!), he certainly wasn't carrying much of anything else.  I think he may have just been having the typical juvenile reaction to doing things wrong--"run away!"  The fact that there wasn't much of anywhere for him to run would have been obvious to a student of history (say, someone who's read about Booth's "escape"), but not necessarily Lee.  But if he had any plans, yes, they probably involved Cuba.  Lee wasn't very good at details.
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Offline ka9q

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #417 on: May 13, 2012, 07:51:02 PM »
I generally agree that Oswald probably wasn't thinking that far ahead. He had a demonstrated history of doing stupid things without regard to the consequences even with lots of planning. He'd planned his defection to the USSR for years, and his attempt on Walker for at least several months. He even delayed it to a night when a nearby church would be having services so he could escape into the crowd.

Although he anticipated being caught or killed (hence his note to Marina) his escape plan actually worked. Witnesses cited people getting into cars and driving off after the shooting when Oswald was actually on foot and took the bus. The Walker shooting remained unsolved until after the JFK assassination when Marina finally revealed it.

So when Oswald heard that JFK would ride by his place of work in just a few days, he had very little time for planning. Undoubtedly he felt that he just couldn't pass up the opportunity of a lifetime even if he were quickly caught or killed. And if something had gone wrong, say the limousine had the bubble-top or he couldn't set up an assassins' nest and remain hidden until 12:30, he could always call it all off. He could have quietly carried his rifle back home in the bag and no one would ever have known.

Still, a lot of conspiracists correctly point out that every other presidential assassin (and would-be assassin) readily confessed his role immediately after the act, and they do raise the interesting question of why Oswald was the sole exception. They claim this was because he was truly innocent, which is of course just utterly absurd to anyone who knows even a sprinkling of the real facts. For one thing, the other attempts had all used pistols at close range with a crowd of witnesses. Ruby might as well have denied shooting Oswald. JFK is the only president assassinated by a hidden sniper, although there were still quite a few good witnesses to the actual shooting.

Oswald made many obvious attempts, both before and after, to establish alibis and to escape. He bought his guns under an assumed name. He went out of his way to lamely pretend to one of his co-workers several hours before the assassination that he hadn't been aware of the upcoming motorcade that everyone had been buzzing about for days. When he left the Depository about 3 minutes after the shooting, he walked east on Elm Street and got on a bus that would take him right back through Dealy Plaza. After he took the cab to Oak Cliff, he had the cabbie drop him off several blocks past his roominghouse so he could see if the police were already there and to keep the cabbie from knowing where he actually went.

And the biggie, of course, is murdering Officer Tippit. Most of the conspiracy nuts just ignore it because it simply can't be explained as anything but a desperate attempt to escape arrest for a very serious crime. We'll never know what they said to each other, but Tippit almost certainly stopped him because he matched Brennan's description of the assassin that had been broadcast on the radio several times. It's possible that Tippit noticed Oswald's gun, but it seems unlikely given the nonchalant way he was seen to get out of his car. Oswald was also concealing it in his jacket. There's some question about whether Tippit was drawing his own gun when Oswald shot him; it was out of its holster when a witness grabbed it to play vigilante but it could have been knocked out when he fell.

We know that Oswald had an extremely high opinion of himself; he may have actually thought he could fool his interrogators. Certainly many other suspects have thought so only to find out otherwise at trial. Maybe Oswald's confidence was bolstered further by having gotten away with his attempt on Walker. Only once did he became flustered during his twelve hours of interrogation, when he was confronted with the backyard photos of him posing with his guns.

Oswald may have been delusional in thinking he could fool trained and experienced investigators, but he has succeeded beyond his wildest dreams in fooling the public. Had he simply confessed, the entire JFK conspiracy industry never would have existed. I think it's an example of the "big lie" principle in action. Most people don't tell huge lies over and over, so when they see Oswald hotly maintaining his innocence against a mountain of incriminating evidence, they begin to wonder if that mountain really exists.

Hey, it worked for OJ Simpson.



Offline ka9q

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #418 on: May 13, 2012, 08:06:35 PM »
That's my guess as well.  But I suppose short of finding a letter from Havana that says, "In the event Lee Harvey Oswald assassinates Kennedy and asks for asylum, turn him down", I guess we'll never know for sure :)
Actually, I think we do know. Castro gave an interview saying that it would have been absolutely suicidal for him to even try to assassinate JFK. He said that would have provoked an all-out US military attack on Cuba. He's almost certainly right.

The Cuban consular officials testified that when Oswald showed up in Mexico city demanding a visa, they thought he was an unstable nutcase and turned him away. All the evidence seems to back that up.

We'll never know what went through Oswald's mind, but it certainly seems plausible that his love for Castro was a large part of his motive. He desperately wanted to join their revolution and had been turned away. What better way to impress them with his revolutionary ardour than killing Castro's most powerful and outspoken adversary, JFK?

Offline ka9q

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Re: JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots
« Reply #419 on: May 13, 2012, 08:26:01 PM »
Lee's life on Earth was Marina's Hell.
I suspect her hell has been living for nearly 50 years knowing that she was the only person on earth who could have prevented the assassination but didn't. Had she turned him in for the Walker attempt, JFK (and Tippit) would have lived. So would Oswald himself unless Texas also executes for attempted murder.

I think this is why Marina has more recently sided with the conspiracists. If she can persuade herself that her husband was innocent, then she doesn't have to feel guilty about her inaction.

But her original take was the far more accurate one. Bugliosi makes an excellent point. If you heard that the President had just been shot, is there someone you know whom you'd immediately wonder about? Marina was outside hanging up clothes when she heard that JFK had been shot. She was so worried that she went into Ruth Paine's garage to see if Lee's rifle was still in its blanket. Thinking it was still there (she didn't actually unfold it) she breathed a sigh of relief. When the police arrived later that afternoon and found the blanket empty, she turned white.

Much the same was true for Jack Ruby. Hardly anybody who knew him was particularly surprised at what he'd done.

Oswald and Ruby were polar opposites in some ways; Oswald was an extreme introvert while Ruby was an extreme extrovert. But both had demonstrated a capacity for violence without regard to its consequences. And both their actions were consistent with their personalities as their friends and families knew them. The same people laugh at any suggestion that either was part of any conspiracy.

 

« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 08:29:38 PM by ka9q »