JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots

[LunarOrbit]

I know the witnesses had difficulty in determining the source of the gunshots (based on the sound alone) because all humans would have such difficulty. Besides, if there was no confusion all of the witnesses would agree with each other. The fact that some witnesses say the shots came from the Schoolbook Depository and other witnesses say the grassy knoll suggests that there was some confusion.

Did you mean to say that you believe the witnesses had difficulty in determining the source of the gunshots?

No, I said exactly what I meant to say. The fact that all of the witnesses didn't point to one location as the source of the gunshots, and the fact that one of the locations that they pointed to couldn't possibly have been the source of the shots, means that at least some of the witnesses identified the wrong location as the source of the shots. In other words, they were confused by the echoes.

A witness a few feet away from the sniper and between the sniper and the limo could not tell if the shot was from behind or in front of them?

I'm sure the witnesses closest to the assassin would have had the best chance of identifying the source of the gunshots.

[profmunkin]

Standing across the street from the TSBD looking towards the TSBD, 57 feet above him is the snipers nest window.  Right before the motorcade, Edwards claims to have seen someone in the window on the 6th floor...

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/edwards.htm
"Mr. BELIN - If you said four, you mean the affidavit-maybe we'd better introduce it into the record as Edward's Deposition Exhibit A. Where do you think the shots came from?
Mr. EDWARDS - I have no idea. "

Also thought there were 4 shots fired

[LunarOrbit]

"Oswald" Rifle found without a clip?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid6.htm
"1985 book Reasonable Doubt, Henry Hurt intones:

Without a clip, the cartridges must be hand-loaded, one by one, making rapid shooting flatly impossible.
There is not a shred of positive evidence that such a clip was found with the Mannlicher-Carcano in the sniper's nest. (p. 103) "

After the last shell is ejected on a Carcano doesn't the clip fall out?

Wow. You can't even keep your own claims straight. Was there a clip or not?

Why should we take you seriously?

[gillianren]

And I'm sorry, but that's a cite from the McAdams site, which makes it quite clear that Henry Hurt is wrong, a fact never acknowledged.  That's also the site which lists exactly where all those witnesses stated they believed the shots to come from, which, yes, shows that you're wrong that "virtually all" of the witnesses believed the shots came from the Grassy Knoll.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/earwitnesses.htm

[Chew]

And I'm sorry, but that's a cite from the McAdams site, which makes it quite clear that Henry Hurt is wrong, a fact never acknowledged. 

Right. The very next sentence says, "Yet a little research would have turned up plenty of evidence that the clip was found with the rifle."

Talk about bias.

[BazBear]

After the last shell is ejected on a Carcano doesn't the clip fall out?

No, it falls out after the last round is stripped off of it by the bolt and loaded into the chamber (I own one).

[Jason Thompson]

Where is the testimony detailing particular potential problems in detecting the source of reports within Dealey Plaza?
If there isn't any, it was not an issue.

Rubbish.

Fact: witnesses reported hearing the same number of shots from different locations. This means they cannot all be correct in their identification of the location. That is a fact so self-evident that writing it into official testimony is utterly pointless.

WC ran multiple reenactments in Dealey Plaza, if witness testimonies for acoustics was a problem the WC could have determined the nature and magnitide of the problems during the reenactments, where is the data?

Did those re-enactments include firing guns out of windows at moving cars? Having people down on the ground listening for where the shots came from? Or was it just to see the viability of a sniper from the sixth floor window being able to shoot someone in the car from that distance? You're the one reading the commission report, so you tell us what data there is.

The WC never challenged the FACT that witnesses thoroughly corroborated that the report...report.report came from the grassy knoll they just ignored the FACT.

Because it does not agree with other FACTS. This is normal in an investigation. It doesn't matter how many people say they heard shots from there if there is no other corroborating evidence to say that there was anyone there in a position to have fired on the motorcade in the way that the bullets were known to have struck Kennedy and Connally. Incidentally, we still await your explanation of how Kennedy was shot from in front and Connally from behind while the limo was pretty much level with the knoll.

You can talk about acoustics and physics and theories and science till your blue in the face, but until you can provide evidence that acoustics significantly effected the witnesses to determine the source of the reports, withdraw the arguement.

Unfortunately, talking about physics until I am blue in the face is something I do often with conspiracy theorists who have not the first inclination about any aspect of it and expect reality to conform to their limited understanding.

You are basing your entire dismissal of the physics here on your own expectation of what should be, and you are doing nothing at all to examine your own expectations. Fortunately physics does not care what you think, and the limited use of 'earwitness' testimony is a very well known limitation on any such investigation.

[Jason Thompson]

You made me giggle, I can just see all of the Dallas police running the wrong way because they could not detect the direction of report...report.report.
At least we can marvel at them for all running in the same direction.

You just don't understand plain English, do you? The police are human and they would have the same limitations on their ability to pinpoint a sound as any other witness. A limitation that most people are not aware of in the moment. If a large number of people thought the sound came from the knoll they may well look or run there, but that does NOT mean their identification of the sound as originating there is any more correct. Simple sharp short sounds like rifle reports are often difficult to localise. That is a FACT, and your refusing to understand it won't actually change that.

[Echnaton]

]

For god's sake, Weitzman did not examine the rifle.  He saw stuffed between two rows of boxes.  Secondly the caliber stamp on the rifle was obscured by the scope, and only visible by close examination.

Where is the Mauser stamped and what do you suppose the Dallas Police thought of Argentino 1909 stamp.
They both end in an o

  What part of "Weitzman did not examine the rifle" do you not understand?

[Jason Thompson]

Oh, and just for my own curiosity I looked into the testimony of some of the witnesses, and following profmunkin's question about witnesses saying they had trouble working out where the shots came from, or saying echoes were an issue:

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion about the direction from which the shots came by the sound, or were you just upset by the thing you had seen?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. No, there was too much reverberation. There was an echo which gave me a sound all over. In other words that square is kind of--it had a sound all over.

Mr. STERN - Just a minute. Do you recall your impression at the time regarding the source of the shots?

Mr. HARGIS - Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from

Finding that took me about five minutes with Google, so why someone who is supposedly reading the commission report in detail couldn't identify it remains to be explained...

[profmunkin]

No, it falls out after the last round is stripped off of it by the bolt and loaded into the chamber (I own one).

I would like to understand this.
If the clip is supposed to drop out when the last cartridge is chambered, why is the clip still depicted in the rifle when there is no longer a cartridge on the clip or in the chamber ?

[Ranb]

The Carcano ciip is intended to falll out after the last round is fed into the chamber.  But if the clip is bent, very dirty, rifle held sideways or other issues exist, then the clip stays in the rifle. 

I own a Carcano with a 4x scope on it.  It is a real piece of crap as the barrel is black and pitted but the bolt cycles smoothly.  I am an experienced shooter, but I cannot say I was as good a marksman as Oswald was as he was a Marine.  It is a simple matter to pull the trigger three times cycle the bolt twice in six seconds and put each bullet into a man sized target at 80 yards even with my crappy rifle.  The fact that the limo was moving slowly away at a small angle only made the feat a bit harder.

Ranb

[twik]

Again, could you explain why these dedicated conspirators, who (you admit) were desperate to ensure their ruse of a single gunman worked, planted the wrong type of rifle?

And please assess the probability of that versus people making a simple mistake in the heat of the moment.

Apparently, in your world, there are two groups - those who tell the truth, and those who lie. There's no room for people who make mistakes, who forget details, or who otherwise try to tell the truth, but don't quite do so.

I'm reminded of the Paul Bernardo investigation in Canada, where police spent months fruitlessly searching for a black Trans Am, reported by two witnesses as being involved in one of the kidnappings. Now, it turns out Bernardo didn't own a black Trans Am - he owned a black Nissan which very similar in appearance to a Trans Am. Do you plan to protest his conviction, because if witnesses SAID it was a Trans Am, it MUST have been a Trans Am, and no other type of car is possible?

[Jason Thompson]

It is standard conspiracy thinking: the scenario whereby mistakes are made and then rectified or dismissed as mistakes does not exist. Anything that changes a story from the first statement is some sort of coverup or distortion of facts.

[ApolloGnomon]

A quick glance across this thread leads me to wonder if profmunchkin knows the difference between a clip and a magazine.


{edit to add after doing some research on the weapon type}

Ah. I didn't know the clip for that rifle exits via the bottom of the ammo well. I'm only familiar with the ones that exit via the top, sproinging out on the last round.

Anyway, here's a video of a guy operating one. The en bloc clip stays in the receiver until the bolt is closed.