JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots

[Chew]

More data to come

You have more than enough unanswered direct requests for answers to get you banned without dragging up more red herrings.

What maybe interesting is all you conspiricied people have is Euins and Brennan claiming they saw the sniper in 6th floor window. Two half wits, who together wouldn't even make a nit wit.

Sure. But they, and Robert Jackson, were the only people in Dealey Plaza to see a person shooting a rifle.

What were all of the police looking at?
What were all of the Secret Service men looking at?

Good question. Why don't you ask the two agents on the right-hand running board of the Secret Service car?

If the TSBD was the location where the shots came from and there were only a few open windows to see but not one trained professional saw anything. Anything, why?

We could ask the same thing of your theory and ask why didn't these trained professionals see a gun man on the grassy knoll. The rules of logic and evidence apply equally to all participants in a debate. Remember that the next time you think the rules of logic doesn't apply to you. What's good for the lone gunman is good for the conspiracy theorist.

I will help you, maybe Oswald shot from the shadows and could not be seen.

The police and the Secret Service should have looked toward the picket fence where twice as many people saw smoke and twice as many people saw the sniper.

One person saw smoke and he immediately ran there and didn't see anybody. Nobody saw a gunman on the grassy knoll.

[LunarOrbit]

What maybe interesting is all you conspiricied people have is Euins and Brennan claiming they saw the sniper in 6th floor window.

So you are willing to believe ear-witnesses who were almost certainly fooled by echoes, but you ignore people who actually saw the guy with the gun. Don't you see how deluded that is?

Besides, we don't just have those two guys. We have the gun at the scene of the crime. We know who owned that gun, and we know that he had reason to be in that building on that day. We know he was a little bit nutty (and violent), and that he had even attempted to murder someone previously. That all adds up to him being the assassin. You have provided no alternative. Who killed Kennedy, if it wasn't Lee Oswald? Come on... give us a name. Give us one reason to believe it wasn't Oswald.

[Chew]

Are you prepared yet to tell us your hypothesis of locations and number of shots and to defend that hypothesis?  Untill you do that you are no different that any random conspiracy crank.

Can we agree that the depiction shown in attached image has the bullet entering the back above the throat wound whereas it should be about 5 inches lower then the neck wound. Close to where the arrow is pointing.

No we cannot because it is inconsistent with the autopsy report. How many times do you have to be told that? Besides if it was 5 inches lower than the neck wound then that means the shot had to go through the trunk and JFK's seat before it would hit him in the back.

[Chew]

Ranb

Never thought about it but a package with curtain rods should be a whole lot smaller.

No, they should be a lot bigger. Oswald's boarding room had double windows and double length curtain rods.

Frazier said Oswald palmed it on one end and the other was wedged under his armpit.
Frazier was very specific.

The only thing Frazier was specific about was that he didn't pay any attention the package. He was so specific about not paying attention to it, in fact, that he said so twice in his WC testimony.

You have several pending requests for direct answers:
Why were no curtain rods found in the TSBD?
Why did Oswald say he needed curtain rods when his room already had curtain rods?
Why did Oswald lie to the police that all he brought to work was his paper sack lunch?

[profmunkin]

You are making an a priori assumption that the shots came from the grassy knoll when you claim the acoustics didn't fool 43 people. The various investigations have always tabulated a greater number of shots originating from the TSBD than from the grassy knoll.

Where are you claiming Harold Norman heard the shots come from?

Do you mean Norman, the guy who ran down to look out the window on the West side of the building so he could see all the activity in the rail yards immediately after the last shot? Reluctantly.
I also included that Jarmin claimed the shots came from below and left, or not in the building.
I also included Williams who was asked "Did you hear anything upstairs at all? and William's answered "no, sir, I didn't hear anything". Williams never heard anything from the 6th floor?  Reluctantly.  If a rifle was fired 12 feet away from Williams and he couldn't notice it was there, ?, it just goes beyond even the realm of twilight zone. Actually none of them noticed it, did they?

What investigations?

I still have all the people in the motorcade to tabulate and most of the Dallas law enforcement officials have not been done. Maybe they will dramatically alter my data to more closely reflect the other investigations.

[profmunkin]

I also suspect that the reason so many people pointed to the areas around the grassy knoll and the general direction ahead of the motorcade was because that is where a gunshot fired from TSBD would have echoed from the most. I imagine the sound would have travelled in the same direction as the bullet (spreading outwards like a wake behind a boat) and then echoed off of the hard surfaces ahead of the motorcade, bouncing back towards TSBD.

Really
Again please list those witnesses that claimed they heard echos?

What evidence do you have, that discerning the direction of shots in Dealey Plaza would cause the majority of a given population to have a distorted but unified experience all recognizing the direction to be from the exact same location. You must be reading science fiction.

About 10% of this population had a vague general direction of the shots.

[Ranb]

Never thought about it but a package with curtain rods should be a whole lot smaller.

Frazier said Oswald palmed it on one end and the other was wedged under his armpit.
Frazier was very specific.

Show us a link where Fraizer said Oswald palmed the package he was carrying.  That word is not in your post I replied to. 

I do not know what size curtain rods you are used to seeing, but they come in all sorts of sizes.  What curtain rods were found anywhere that were supposed to have belonged to Oswald?

Ranb

[profmunkin]

You have more than enough unanswered direct requests for answers to get you banned without dragging up more red herrings.

Nobody saw a gunman on the grassy knoll.

I try not to ignore anything worth answering.

Ed Hoffman saw the gunman
Gordon Arnold saw the gunman
J.C. Price saw the gunman
Lee Bowers saw the gunman
Jean Hill saw the gunman
that's 5 nobodies, do you want more?

[ka9q]

Your counts would be irrelevant even if they were accurate, which they are not; many conspiracy nuts have produced lists that are highly skewed toward the grassy knoll and away from the TSBD.

Why do you put so much weight on subjective earwitness reports when we already have such overwhelming physical evidence showing exactly where the shots came from? And why do you ignore the witnesses with qualitatively superior testimony, such as the three guys in the window directly below Oswald, and the people on the street (such as Howard Brennan) who actually saw the rifle being fired from that window?

I know the answer -- none of that evidence goes in the direction you would like, so you simply ignore it. No other reason.

[Chew]

You are making an a priori assumption that the shots came from the grassy knoll when you claim the acoustics didn't fool 43 people. The various investigations have always tabulated a greater number of shots originating from the TSBD than from the grassy knoll.

Where are you claiming Harold Norman heard the shots come from?

Do you mean Norman, the guy who ran down to look out the window on the West side of the building so he could see all the activity in the rail yards immediately after the last shot? Reluctantly.

Why reluctantly? He testified why they ran down that way:

Mr. BALL. Why did you run down to that window?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, it seems as though everyone else was running towards the railroad tracks, and we ran over there. Curious to see why everybody was running that way for. I thought maybe--

I also included that Jarmin claimed the shots came from below and left, or not in the building.
I also included Williams who was asked "Did you hear anything upstairs at all? and William's answered "no, sir, I didn't hear anything". Williams never heard anything from the 6th floor?  Reluctantly.  If a rifle was fired 12 feet away from Williams and he couldn't notice it was there, ?, it just goes beyond even the realm of twilight zone.

Williams said he thought the shots came from inside the building; the concussion of the muzzle blast shook the building and cement particles fell into his hair. Do you mean to imply that since he could not exactly locate the location of the shots that there was no one shooting from the TSBD?

Actually none of them noticed it, did they?

You left out Norman again. Intentionally, I must assume.

What investigations?

Warren Commission and the HSCA.

[ka9q]

Ed Hoffman saw the gunman
Gordon Arnold saw the gunman
J.C. Price saw the gunman
Lee Bowers saw the gunman
Jean Hill saw the gunman
that's 5 nobodies, do you want more?

If you said this as an attorney in court, you'd get cited for contempt for misstating the evidence.

This is really tiresome. We've learned not to trust your characterizations of any of the evidence in this case. Not even direct quotations from witnesses, which you cherry-pick and use out of context even when you get the words right.

Why do you bother to continue to make arguments that are so easily refuted by anyone who takes the time to look it up?

[Chew]

You have more than enough unanswered direct requests for answers to get you banned without dragging up more red herrings.

Nobody saw a gunman on the grassy knoll.

I try not to ignore anything worth answering.

Ed Hoffman saw the gunman

Hoffman has been debunked by his own family.

Gordon Arnold saw the gunman

Arnold was never in Dealey Plaza.

J.C. Price saw the gunman

Price saw a man running in the railroad yard. He also thought the president was shot as the limo passed under the triple underpass! His original statement includes no gun man.

Lee Bowers saw the gunman

Bowers said he thinks he saw people milling about by the fence long before the assassination but he never said he saw a gun man.

Jean Hill saw the gunman

Hill was interviewed the day of the assassination and she was directly asked if she saw a gun man and she said no. Only years later did she add a gun man to her story.

that's 5 nobodies, do you want more?

You have yet to supply one, let alone five.

[profmunkin]

Show us a link where Fraizer said Oswald palmed the package he was carrying.  That word is not in your post I replied to. 

I do not know what size curtain rods you are used to seeing, but they come in all sorts of sizes.  What curtain rods were found anywhere that were supposed to have belonged to Oswald?

Ranb

"Mr. BALL - You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - You mean one end of it under the armpit?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under your arm like that.
Mr. BALL - And he had the lower part--
Mr. FRAZIER - The other part with his right hand.
Mr. BALL - Right hand?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - He carried it then parallel to his body?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right, straight up and down.
Representative FORD - Under his right arm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.
Mr. BALL - Did it appear to you there was some, more than just paper he was carrying, some kind of a weight he was carrying?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that because I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated curtain rods when they come in, and I know if you have seen when they come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever"

Palm it is what he did " the other part with his hand" also "straight up and down"

"you know how they can bundle them up and put them in there pretty compact" he is saying this was a small package.

Frazier was asked if the package was heavy, he replied that he didn't pay any attention to how heavy it was, because the packaged looked like it was curtain rods not a 10 pound rifle wrapped in shipping paper, Frazier thinks he would have known, he had uncrated curtain rods at a previous job, he hadn't noticed anything out of the ordinary concerning the package of curtain rods Oswald carried.

[LunarOrbit]

Again please list those witnesses that claimed they heard echos?

Are you really this stupid? If they were fooled by the echoes they wouldn't claim to have heard them. And since it was impossible to shoot JFK and Gov. Connally in the back from the grassy knoll we know the witnesses who claimed the shots came from there were mistaken. It doesn't matter one bit if more people claimed the shots came from the grassy knoll than the school book depository because it is impossible. Sometimes the majority is wrong. This isn't a case where the theory with the most votes wins.

What evidence do you have, that discerning the direction of shots in Dealey Plaza would cause the majority of a given population to have a distorted but unified experience all recognizing the direction to be from the exact same location.

I want you to try to grasp this very simple concept: President Kennedy and Governor Connally were shot in the back. The grassy knoll was in front and to the right of them. You can't shoot someone in the back when you are in front of them. Do you understand this? Yes or no?

If witnesses are saying the shots came from a position that is impossible then we know those witnesses are wrong. Now, they were either lying or they were fooled by the echoes. I have no reason to believe they were lying.

You must be reading science fiction.

That's pretty funny coming from someone who believes the victims were shot in the back by an assassin who was positioned in front of them.

About 10% of this population had a vague general direction of the shots.

Which only proves that witness testimony that is based on the sound of the gunshots is unreliable. Why do you ignore the witnesses who actually saw the gunman in the school book depository?

[ka9q]

Sigh. Profmunkin, do you even read the testimony that you do quote? Like when Frazier repeatedly says he didn't pay close attention to the package Oswald was carrying?

You might also have quoted (and paid attention to) the part of his testimony when he says Oswald hurried ahead of him into the building, when in the past they had always entered the building together.

And you might explain to us why Oswald repeatedly lied to the police when he denied telling Frazier that he went to Irving to get curtain rods, when he denied telling Frazier that he had curtain rods in the package, indeed when he denied even carrying anything to work but his usual bag lunch -- which Frazier was quite sure Oswald did not have that day. And while you're at it, explain why Oswald would need curtain rods for a fully furnished room when he had never discussed it with his landlady. Or why no curtain rods were ever found in the Depository. Or why there were still some curtain rods in the Paine garage after the assassination.