JFK - 3 shooters 6 shots

[DataCable]

one possible scenario, another is, bullet strikes a bone and transfers completely all of its momentum to the bone and surrounding tissue.

So you're saying that bullets do not penetrate bone.

[Edit to emphasize relevant portion of quote.]

[profmunkin]

Acoustics?
"Mr. LIEBELER. There was in fact a considerable echo in that area? Mr. TAGUE. There was no echo from where I stood. I was asked this question before, and there was no echo. It was just a loud, oh, not a cannon, but definitely louder and more solid than a rifleshot."

[profmunkin]

"Mr. TAGUE. I believe they came from up in here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Back in the area"C"?
Mr. TAGUE. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Behind the concrete monument here between Nos. 5 and 7, toward the general area of "C"?
Mr. TAGUE. Yes. "
picket fence <-

"Mr. TAGUE. Right. When we got within about 20 feet, the deputy sheriff spotted the place about 12 to 15 feet out from the embankment on the curb, and turned around, and we looked up here where the policeman originally ran up on the grass here.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is an area circled here with the letter "C" in it. Is that where the policeman ran toward the grassy area; included in that circle, is that right? "

direction of the mark is "the grassy knoll"?

[DataCable]

Ballistics?

one possible scenario, another is, bullet strikes a bone and transfers completely all of its momentum to the bone and surrounding tissue.

So you're saying that bullets do not penetrate bone.

[twik]

It penetrates, and continues, with most of its momentum preserved.

one possible scenario, another is, bullet strikes a bone and transfers completely all of its momentum to the bone and surrounding tissue.

You believe that the head shot bullet didn't penetrate JFK's head?

[profmunkin]

So you're saying that bullets do not penetrate bone.

Did not say that.
The bullet could do lots of things
Bullet may lodge in bone
Bullet may penetrate.
Bullet may penetrate and disintegrate
Bullet may richochet off bone.
Bullet may richochet and disintegrate

[Jason Thompson]

Acoustics?
"Mr. LIEBELER. There was in fact a considerable echo in that area? Mr. TAGUE. There was no echo from where I stood. I was asked this question before, and there was no echo. It was just a loud, oh, not a cannon, but definitely louder and more solid than a rifleshot."

How many more times do you need telling that an echo is not necessarily detectable as an echo? You will hear a short sharp sound whether it comes directly to your ears or if it comes via a reflection off a structure first. If the sound happenes to reach both your ears at the same time you have no way of telling which direction it came from.

Again, personal experience. In my shooting exercise example I did not hear anything that cued me in to the fact I was hearing an echo. I only knew I must be because I knew exactly where the shots had to be coming from.

[Jason Thompson]

direction of the mark is "the grassy knoll"?

Still irrelevant, as Tague is no less likely to be deceived by an echo than any other person in that plaza.

[Jason Thompson]

So you're saying that bullets do not penetrate bone.

Did not say that.
The bullet could do lots of things
Bullet may lodge in bone
Bullet may penetrate.
Bullet may penetrate and disintegrate
Bullet may richochet off bone.
Bullet may richochet and disintegrate

Well then, to use your own method of debating, provide evidence that a high powered rifle bullet does any of those things on impacting a human skull.

We know full well that all the bullet's momentum was not tranferred to the head, because there was a large shower of bone and brain matter. The only souce for the momentum of that material was the bullet.

[profmunkin]

Well then, to use your own method of debating, provide evidence that a high powered rifle bullet does any of those things on impacting a human skull.

We know full well that all the bullet's momentum was not transferred to the head, because there was a large shower of bone and brain matter. The only souce for the momentum of that material was the bullet.

In wc doctors from parkland say a bullets behavior and path can be unpredictable.

[Jason Thompson]

And yet earlier on this thread you were demanding proof of duplication of the precise condition of the so-called 'pristine' bullet, and dismissing our efforts to explain to you that the number of variables (and the resulting unpredictablilty of the bullet's path and effects) makes that impossible.

So either a bullet's path and condition can be duplicated or a bullet's path and condition can be unpredictable. Apparently it depends on what you need to be true to make your argument, doesn't it?

[DataCable]

So you're saying that bullets do not penetrate bone.

Did not say that.

Yes, you did:

bullet strikes a bone and transfers completely all of its momentum to the bone and surrounding tissue.

That means:
Bullet comes to a complete stop
Bone and surrounding tissue continues with momentum transferred from the bullet.
Ergo, the bullet does not penetrate the bone.

The bullet could do lots of things
Bullet may lodge in bone

Transferring how much momentum in the process?

Bullet may penetrate.

Transferring how much momentum in the process?

Bullet may penetrate and disintegrate

Transferring how much momentum in the process?

Bullet may richochet off bone.

Transferring how much momentum in the process?

Bullet may richochet and disintegrate

Transferring how much momentum in the process?

[ka9q]

Mr. LIEBELER. There is an area circled here with the letter "C" in it. Is that where the policeman ran toward the grassy area; included in that circle, is that right? "

direction of the mark is "the grassy knoll"?

As people keep trying to explain to you, repeatedly but to no avail, it doesn't matter where Tague thought the shot came from! We already know, from abundant evidence, exactly where it came from: the easternmost window on the south side of the 6th floor of the TSBD. Why can't you understand this? Why are you still so desperately anxious to fool yourself into thinking it came from someplace else?

Draw a line from Oswald's window in the southeast corner of the TSBD through the "X" on Elm St where JFK was hit by the head shot. Continue that line to the southwest until it crosses the south curb of Main St. It does so very close to the lead mark on the curb just east of where Tague was standing at the time. This is completely consistent with Tague having been hit by a fragment of Oswald's third bullet that exited the front of JFK's head, continued downrange to that point on the curb and then ricocheted into Tague's face. Or Tague could have been hit by a separate fragment from the one that hit the curb, with the two taking almost the same trajectories; there's no way to know for sure. We do know that the bullet that hit JFK in the head fragmented extensively and the total mass of the recovered fragments in the limo was considerably less than that of an intact bullet. Obviously much of the bullet went elsewhere.

When seen from above, Oswald's rifle, JFK's head and the curb mark (or Tague) are close to collinear (form a straight line). But they do not have to be exactly so because the fragment(s) were certainly deflected as they passed through JFK. In fact, an upward deflection was necessary just to clear the windshield. Fragments of the third shot are known to have struck the inside of the windshield and a modest upward deflection (16 degrees according to Dale Myers) was also necessary for them to reach this spot.

[ka9q]

In wc doctors from parkland say a bullets behavior and path can be unpredictable.

Yes, bullets can indeed be unpredictable. Why? Because you can't exactly control or even precisely measure all the conditions of every shot. As hard as you try, there will always be some slightly different initial condition that may lead to a different outcome. The wind might pick up a little, or change direction. The cartridge might have slightly more or less powder than the last, or be at a slightly different temperature. The rifle barrel will warm up with each shot and change its shape ever so slightly. The air density along the bullet's path may fluctuate slightly as warm air convects off the ground. And so on and on.

This principle is the foundation of what's now known as chaos theory.

All that said, every bullet will still follow all the laws of physics, without exception. Even if the initial energy given to the bullet varies a little from shot to shot, that energy will always be conserved. Even if the bullet fragments in a slightly different way when it hits the target, the total momentum of all those fragments plus that of the target will always be conserved. And so on.

[profmunkin]

When seen from above, Oswald's rifle, JFK's head and the curb mark (or Tague) are close to collinear (form a straight line). But they do not have to be exactly so because the fragment(s) were certainly deflected as they passed through JFK. In fact, an upward deflection was necessary just to clear the windshield. Fragments of the third shot are known to have struck the inside of the windshield and a modest upward deflection (16 degrees according to Dale Myers) was also necessary for them to reach this spot.

Where did you get the evidence that the mark was collinear with the TSBD

Where are the official FBI or Dallas Police photos of this evidence?
Where is the official FBI or Dallas Police reports concerning this evidence?
Did they search for the bullet fragment that caused this mark, did they locate it?