Author Topic: Is it possible to convert a HB?  (Read 49553 times)

Offline Allan F

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #75 on: November 02, 2014, 04:44:32 PM »
I have to admit that my knowledge of Apollo 12 launch went as far as the lighting strike, I had no idea about the SCE to AUX scenario. I've watched a few YouTube videos today, read the flight transcript and read the above posts. Incredible stuff, these guys knew their business and so cool under pressure. Amazing.

Thanks again guys, I've learned a fair bit today  8)
Indeed. And it demonstrates just how rich the story is and how absurd the conspiracy theory is when you realise this.

Also, I love the mug. Is it actually available anywhere?
http://www.amazon.com/CafePress-AUX-T-Shirt-Organic-Mens/dp/B00JTQAJ1G/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414964629&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=keep+calm+and+try+sce+to+aux

No mug, but you can get the t-shirt.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #76 on: November 02, 2014, 05:30:51 PM »
I have to admit that my knowledge of Apollo 12 launch went as far as the lighting strike, I had no idea about the SCE to AUX scenario. I've watched a few YouTube videos today, read the flight transcript and read the above posts. Incredible stuff, these guys knew their business and so cool under pressure. Amazing.

Thanks again guys, I've learned a fair bit today  8)
Indeed. And it demonstrates just how rich the story is and how absurd the conspiracy theory is when you realise this.

Also, I love the mug. Is it actually available anywhere?

If you can come up with the logo as a jpg, your local photo retailer should be able to make you one!
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #77 on: November 02, 2014, 06:07:28 PM »
Indeed. And it demonstrates just how rich the story is and how absurd the conspiracy theory is when you realise this.

Exactly. I exchanged a few PMs with Dwight during the height of awe130 thread, and he said something that made sense to me. I just laugh at them now while I marvel at Apollo's achievements and the stories that surround it. I might never understand the detail of the electrical engineering behind SCE to AUX, but the story is just awesome.

When we have so many people here who can answer questions with great authority, I think it is better to learn than argue with the die hards. Jarrah et al. are going to their graves having spent an inordinate amount of time proving nothing thinking they have.

Quote
Also, I love the mug. Is it actually available anywhere?

No, but you can get a hoodie here.

I have some cash floating around from my birthday, so I might treat myself to this as its really right up my geek street.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline Noldi400

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #78 on: November 02, 2014, 06:10:43 PM »
The box could be set in the normal or auxiliary position; in the former setting it would turn off with low voltage and in the latter position it would continue to operate even under lower power conditions.

This is the only part that doesn't make complete sense to me. The Apollo Operations Handbook doesn't say anything about voltage levels, only that the SCE had two power supplies that would switch automatically if the primary outputs went out of spec, or manually with that switch. Since the switchover didn't occur automatically, I'm inclined to think that the primary supply was producing correct voltages at the time of the manual switchover; it was the brief loss of those voltages due to the deep dip in the +28V bus voltage that had scrambled the SCE hardware.

That IS what it says in the Handbook, but (from a layman's perspective, remember) I can think of two possibilities: Either the instrumentation engineer that Aaron consulted [1] wasn't aware that there was an automatic switchover built into the circuitry, or [2] (and I think this more likely) he knew that the switchover circuitry was sometimes balky and didn't work properly. Either way, if MCC is receiving ratty data, the switchover hasn't happened and the switch needs to be thrown manually.

Your point about voltage levels may just be a matter of phrasing. The SCE would function on the AUX setting with lowered (primary) power levels because it would be operating on its redundant (presumably internal?) power supply.





"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline ka9q

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #79 on: November 03, 2014, 02:42:52 AM »
I found the detailed report on the Apollo 12 lightning strike. Summarizing with added comments:

The fuel cells were knocked offline by rapid false triggering of the SCRs in the fuel cell overload sensors. (An SCR is a silicon controlled rectifier that behaves like a solid-state latching relay.) The triggering had to be false because the fuel cells were simply incapable of producing enough current to trip them so quickly.

The trips are best explained by lightning induced voltage rises >500 V/μs on the anodes of the SCRs. dV/dt triggering is a well-known property of SCRs.

When the three fuel cells dropped off the buses, the entire CSM load of 75 amps was thrown onto entry batteries A and B. That's a very heavy load for batteries rated at only 40 amp-hours at a 25A rate. (Battery C was offline in reserve.) The bus voltage dropped momentarily to 18-19 V but recovered to 23-24V within a few milliseconds.

"The low DC voltage on the main buses resulted in the illumination of the undervoltage warning lights, dropout of the signal conditioning equipment, and a lower voltage input to the inverters. The momentary low voltage to the inverters tripped the ac undervoltage sensor and caused the ac bus 1 fail light to illuminate. The transient that affected the silicon controlled rectifiers in the fuel cell disconnect circuitry also affected the silicon controlled rectifiers in the ac overload circuits in the same manner."

The next section discusses the permanent burnout of 9 sensors in the service module, but they did not materially affect the mission.

There were actually five restarts of the computer, most likely caused by that same momentary +28V bus voltage drop when the fuel cells disconnected.

(end of paraphrase)

I see nothing in the diagrams to suggest that the two SCE power supplies weren't identical. Normal SCE power consumption was about 35W, enormous by today's standards but reasonable for the 1960s. Each produced the same set of output voltages: +20, -20, +10, +5. All four output voltages were themselves telemetered since the accuracy of all telemetry readings depended on them.  I can't think of any reason to design only one supply to operate over the widest supply voltage range possible. I can't say what that range would be without knowing the specific design of each supply, but it seems reasonable that the 20V supplies would require an input of at least 20V. We do know that the +28V DC buses dropped below 20V when the fuel cells dropped off but recovered to voltages well above that in just a few milliseconds.

Today it would be easy to design a telemetry system to be much less susceptible to this sort of power supply glitch. Switching power supplies have pretty much displaced linear designs for most applications and they are inherently able to withstand a much wider range of supply voltages -- to the point that many "universal" designs can handle anything between 100 and 240V without any operator reconfiguration. They can usually store enough energy to ride through fairly long supply outages.






Offline dwight

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #80 on: November 03, 2014, 06:44:34 PM »
Exactly. I exchanged a few PMs with Dwight during the height of awe130 thread, and he said something that made sense to me.

Looks around nervously hoping the HB crowd missed this detail... ;)
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Offline Kiwi

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #81 on: November 03, 2014, 07:27:45 PM »
Also, I love the mug. Is it actually available anywhere?

Looking closely at the photo,
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt353/jarvisn/mugs-r7bbfd3a5b7f74d7eb22d000b017967bd_x7jgr_8byvr_152_zps686b201c.png
because it has a crown at the top, I wonder if the mug is based on British World War 2 posters, "Loose lips sink ships" etc.

I think it would look much better with a NASA logo and just, "Try SCE to AUX" printed on a T-shirt or hoodie in NASA Blue, which might be sufficiently enigmatic to make some people curious enough to ask what it means, therefore gifting the dedicated Apollo Nut one of those delightful but infrequent opportunities to earbash at considerable length, as we are wont to do, the enquirer and anyone else within earshot about Apollo 12 and the other moon landings and every Mercury, Gemini and Apollo mission and the astronauts and cosmonauts and Skylab and Mir and the Space Shuttle and the ISS and the new plans to go to the Moon and Mars.

For those who a keen to get into this, it shouldn't be too hard for city-dwellers to find a suitable logo, print the words and have a T-shirt or hoodie made up locally.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 08:02:01 PM by Kiwi »
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline ajv

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #82 on: November 03, 2014, 07:37:59 PM »
I wonder if the mug is based on British World War 2 posters -- "Loose lips sink ships" etc.
Wikipedia entry: Keep Calm and Carry On

Offline Kiwi

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2014, 07:44:07 PM »
Does anyone know how to make a 1995 CD-ROM work? I can listen to short AIF audio files in IrfanView, but not open movies, instead getting an error message "Unknown codec".
Have you tried VLC (Videolan Player, www.videolan.org)? It supports just about every codec known to man, but as open source software it can't handle DRMed formats.

Many thanks, ka9q, VLC has been languishing on my hard drive for 14 months, mostly unused, and yes, it plays the audio and video files. I didn't know it was so much more capable than the other players I tried.
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline Kiwi

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #84 on: November 03, 2014, 07:51:21 PM »
I wonder if the mug is based on British World War 2 posters -- "Loose lips sink ships" etc.
Wikipedia entry: Keep Calm and Carry On

Ah, I've had a good day now because I've learnt something, and it's only 1:51 pm.  Thanks AJV.
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #85 on: November 04, 2014, 02:13:21 AM »
I wonder if the mug is based on British World War 2 posters -- "Loose lips sink ships" etc.
Wikipedia entry: Keep Calm and Carry On

And here's the place where it was re-discovered:



Barter Books in Alnwick. I was there a couple of weeks ago. A great little place to while away an hour or two.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Tedward

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #86 on: November 04, 2014, 05:41:36 PM »
Spooky. Drove through there last week en route to Cragside.

Missed that then, would have stopped. Look good.