Author Topic: Is it possible to convert a HB?  (Read 49603 times)

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2014, 12:46:55 AM »
No, the SCE and computer were entirely separate.

Hang on. A couple of posts ago you said
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"You do realize that this is basically the same advice given to thousands of frustrated computer users every day in their calls to IT help desks, right? Because it really means "turn it off and back on again and see if that works."

Now you have me confused because you are saying its nothing to do with the computer, that is actually do with the telemetry, which is what I said originally

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"AIUI that is not what SCE to Aux did. My understanding is that the auxiliary signal conditioning circuits were designed to be less sensitive to low voltage conditions, and switching to them allowed mission control to get their telemetry back.

Simply turning the telemetry off and back on would not have worked."

So lets simplify this.

What did the Flight Controllers think might be the cause when they lost all their telemetry? Power failure? A short in the DC bus? (remember they didn't yet know or hadn't yet guessed that they were hit by lightning). The crew were indicating that the fuel cells had tripped off and the main bus voltage was down to 24v approx, not the 30v it was supposed to be, so they were on battery power..

With SCE to Normal, they were never going to get their telemetry back because of the low bus voltage, and until they got their telemetry back they would not know what to do next. However, Aaron figured out that they might get their telemetry back if they switched SCE to Aux because

a. he had seen this same failure condition in a simulation a year earlier, and
b. he understood the system well enough to know that in the Aux position, it was less sensitive to low voltage

As near as I can work out, the crew didn't reset the fuel cells until after Alan Bean switched SCE to Aux.  (approx 000:01:50), At 000:02:19 Houston told them to reset their fuel cells and Bean was going to but was told by Conrad to "wait for staging".

At 000:03:30, Conrad reports that the fuel cells were back on, but its not clear when they were actually reset.

So they went through staging with no fuel cells and running on batteries.
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2014, 02:57:12 AM »
That's usually a separate lamp-test button or switch.  Not only do you want that at power-up, but you want it any any time during the mission to see whether indicators are working.  That's what Pinball (AGC user interface software) was first programmed to do.  Its more sophisticated functions arose later.
True enough. Mike Collins invokes it on the AGC during a TV broadcast after warning the guys on the ground to hold onto their hats. But it only tested the AGC displays. I don't know of a lamp test button in the caution and warning system; was there one?

Offline Kiwi

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2014, 03:23:17 AM »
John Aaron appears much more on the brilliant CD-ROM "Apollo XIII -- A Week to Remember" by Odyssey Interactive, 1995 -- for IBM and MAC.  It would be great if they could release it again in a modern format with higher-res graphics on DVD, but I guess the market isn't all that big. I would want a better version of it. Must see if the CD-ROM still works in my current computer.

No, the CD-ROM won't play. It was made for Windows 3.1 or Windows 95 and QuickTime for Windows 2.0 or greater, but it doesn't want to boot up QuickTime 7, and complains that it can't load a particular driver onto my C: drive, but I can't find it on the CD-ROM, and the internet wasn't used for getting drivers back them -- I wasn't connected to the internet until 2002.

GoogleLand indicates that the CD-ROM was made to coincide with the release of the movie "Apollo 13", but there doesn't seem to be any connection with the studio concerned. The original company, Odyssey Interactive, Inc., seems to only deal in electronic college yearbooks now. Amazon says the CD-ROM is extremely rare and a few other sites seem to be selling it.

Does anyone know how to make a 1995 CD-ROM work? I can listen to short AIF audio files in IrfanView, but not open movies, instead getting an error message "Unknown codec".

This is the annoying thing about this type of media -- quickly becoming unusable decades before books do the same. How silly of me to hope the CD-ROM might be usable 19 years after it was made. :(



Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
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Offline ka9q

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2014, 03:28:55 AM »
Now you have me confused because you are saying its nothing to do with the computer, that is actually do with the telemetry, which is what I said originally
I was making a general comparison. Lots of electronic problems can be fixed with a power cycle that properly triggers a power-on reset. Computers are just the most well-known example, but they're not the only example. The SCE undoubtedly contained its own logic to, e.g., cycle through sensors in a defined order, and it was probably sent into a disallowed state by the power glitch.

Sometimes (e.g., on generic PCs but not most Macs) there's an explicit reset button that does the same thing without actually cycling power. Many modern systems, especially those intended for unattended and/or high reliability operation, have "watchdog" timers that force a system reset unless they are periodically "tickled" by the software to indicate that they're working properly.

In the specific example of Apollo 12, the AGC (computer) and the SCE were separate modules both powered (like everything else on the CSM, either directly or indirectly via the AC inverters) from +28V DC buses A and B. Both were affected by the momentary severe drop in bus voltages when the fuel cells dropped off and threw the entire load onto the entry batteries. The computer reset and restarted itself correctly but the SCE did not. Aaron's call "SCE to AUX" momentarily interrupted power to the SCE as it was switched to its backup power supply, thus forcing the unit to reset itself correctly.
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What did the Flight Controllers think might be the cause when they lost all their telemetry?
I don't know, do you know of any interviews with Aaron in which he describes his thinking at the time?
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The crew were indicating that the fuel cells had tripped off and the main bus voltage was down to 24v approx, not the 30v it was supposed to be, so they were on battery power..
Yes, the crew knew the DC bus voltages were low when Bean read them but they did not immediately realize that they had momentarily fallen much lower after the fuel cells dropped off and before the entry batteries picked up the load. This was a property of silver-zinc battery chemistry, not any electrical circuits.

This momentary (milliseconds) drop is what caused the SCE to malfunction, and the AGC to independently reset and restart.
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With SCE to Normal, they were never going to get their telemetry back because of the low bus voltage,
I don't think that's right. The momentary loss of power put the SCE into a disallowed, malfunctioning state that was most easily fixed by turning its power off for a longer period and then turning it back on so it could do a proper power-on reset. I suspect Aaron, already being familiar with the behavior of an SCE in that malfunctioning state, knew the easiest (and perhaps only) way to do this was to switch the SCE to its backup power supply. So he made the "SCE to AUX" call that saved the day.
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As near as I can work out, the crew didn't reset the fuel cells until after Alan Bean switched SCE to Aux.  (approx 000:01:50), At 000:02:19 Houston told them to reset their fuel cells and Bean was going to but was told by Conrad to "wait for staging".
Right, and this is fully consistent with my understanding: the problem wasn't the low but steady bus voltage with the fuel cells offline and the batteries supplying the load, but with the much lower bus voltage that had existed for a very short time when the fuel cells first dropped offline.
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So they went through staging with no fuel cells and running on batteries.
Yes, and this was a wise call by Conrad. The Saturn V's own guidance system was still working fine, so there was no real urgency in getting all the CSM systems running again. Acceleration builds to 4g's twice during S-IC boost (shortly before inboard cutoff and again just before outboard cutoff) and staging itself is pretty violent, so you'd run the risk of hitting the wrong switch and/or making erroneous readings.

The standard Apollo rule for emergencies was "If you don't know what to do, do nothing". This seemed like wise advice since ill-considered action could easily make something far worse.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2014, 03:34:15 AM »
Does anyone know how to make a 1995 CD-ROM work? I can listen to short AIF audio files in IrfanView, but not open movies, instead getting an error message "Unknown codec".
Have you tried VLC (Videolan Player, www.videolan.org)? It supports just about every codec known to man, but as open source software it can't handle DRMed formats.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #65 on: November 02, 2014, 03:56:14 AM »
ka9q

This video contains parts of the only interview I have ever seen with Aaron about Apollo 12



There is also this

"you can see the rising concern on the faces of the other Flight Controllers.  No one knew what to do.  And no one except John knew how the SCE switch worked and figured out that it could restore power.  (Though not designed for this use, it basically acted as a circuits reset switch here).  Yet the training and discipline of these professionals led them to trust the teammate in charge of this, and they did."

http://amazingstoriesmag.com/2013/03/its-not-rocket-science-john-aaron-sce-to-aux/
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 04:12:27 AM by smartcooky »
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Noldi400

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #66 on: November 02, 2014, 01:55:18 PM »
I don't know, do you know of any interviews with Aaron in which he describes his thinking at the time?

The closest I have seen is in a blog article by a lady named Amy Shira Teitel from which this is an excerpt:

From his console in mission control, Aaron’s instinct to look at the lights on his panel didn’t help. Everything was lighting up. To make matters worse, the data on his screen had been replaced with gibberish numbers. Still, it wasn’t zeroes, and the pattern was somehow familiar to him. He just had to figure out why.

Aaron had seen that same change in data before. Towards the end of 1968, he was sitting in that same seat watching a simulated launch at Kennedy Spaceflight Centre. It was part of his familiarization with launch activities and training in monitoring the spacecraft. The normal data on his screen had momentarily changed from sensible data to gibberish then flipped back almost instantly.

Curious about the anomaly, Aaron got a hard copy of the test data the next morning then got in touch with controllers at Cape Kennedy. They grudgingly admitted that a test conductor had accidentally dropped the spacecraft’s power system to unusually low voltages before correcting his own error. That explained the change in data Aaron saw but didn’t explain the strange pattern the numbers took.

He sought the help of an instrumentation engineer to solve the problem. It turned out that the low power levels had upset the signal conditioning equipment, a box of electronics that served the obscure role of translating information from sensors into signals that fed the displays in the spacecraft and on the ground. The box could be set in the normal or auxiliary position; in the former setting it would turn off with low voltage and in the latter position it would continue to operate even under lower power conditions.

As he looked at the nonsensical data coming down from Apollo 12, Aaron remembered the instrumentation engineer’s final point: switch to auxiliary and you get your data downlink back. So he told Griffin what to do. “Fight, EECOM. Try SCE to AUX.”

Griffin had no idea what that meant. “SCE to off?” he asked, unsure; he had been expecting Aaron to recommend an abort, not a command he’d never heard. “AUX,” Aaron corrected. Griffin passed the command to Carr, who looked at Griffin as if to say are-you-sure-and-what-the-hell-is-that but didn’t. He dutifully relayed the command to Apollo 12 with a confidence in his voice he didn’t entirely feel. Meanwhile Griffin asked Aaron where in the spacecraft the crew could find this famed SCE switch. If Carr, an astronaut, had no idea where or what it was, it was entirely possible the crew aboard Yankee Clipper didn’t either.

Conrad’s reply confirmed Griffin’s suspicions.  “Try FCE to auxiliary. What the hell is that?” “SCE – SCE to auxiliary” Carr corrected. “SCE to AUX,” Conrad called back in confirmation. Bu he still didn’t know where or what it was. Command Module Pilot Dick Gordon in the centre seat was equally clueless.

It was Bean who knew where the switch was, and changed it from normal to auxiliary without hesitation. By the time Griffin turned to Aaron to ask again where the crew could find this mythical SCE switch, everything had changed. “We got it back, flight,” Aaron said before Griffin could open his mouth. New and correct data was starting to come back from the spacecraft. Aaron advised Griffin to have the crew bring fuel cells 1 and 2 back online – connect their power to the CM again. Bean dutifully carried out the command after the Saturn V’s first stage fell away and its second stage kicked to life and shot the crew higher. Fuel cells 1 and 2 came back online followed by fuel cell 3 moments later. The spacecraft was starting to look like it was alive and well.


Ms. Teitel, as it happens, lives fairly close to me. I've sent her an email to ask her source for the information.

As for the mysterious location of the SCE switch, it was sort of buried among the tape recorder and VHF controls on the LMP's electrical panel:






Just as an interesting aside, the phrase has become sort of a cultural meme; you can get coffee cups, t-shirts, and other items with the imprint.




ETA: Link to the article.
http://amyshirateitel.com/2012/04/29/apollo-12s-electrifying-launch/









« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 01:56:57 PM by Noldi400 »
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Online Allan F

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #67 on: November 02, 2014, 02:09:33 PM »
A brilliant man. Curious enough to follow an obscure fault mode on his own time, and quick enough to remember the solution when everybody else were on the brink of cancelling a billion dollar enterprise.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2014, 02:19:25 PM »
I have to admit that my knowledge of Apollo 12 launch went as far as the lighting strike, I had no idea about the SCE to AUX scenario. I've watched a few YouTube videos today, read the flight transcript and read the above posts. Incredible stuff, these guys knew their business and so cool under pressure. Amazing.

Thanks again guys, I've learned a fair bit today  8)
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2014, 03:54:07 PM »
A brilliant man. Curious enough to follow an obscure fault mode on his own time, and quick enough to remember the solution when everybody else were on the brink of cancelling a billion dollar enterprise.

Aaron called it "a natural curiosity about how things work". I think that its a common thread among engineers and scientists.

It is also a common thread here. There is no material benefit to be gained from posting on a forum like this (apart from the obvious wish to defend the reality of Apollo against the false and malicious allegations of the nut-jobs who think it never happened). We're curious, and we want to know and to understand why things are the way they are. The fact that explanations of even the smallest things are often forthcoming, and in detail, is evidence of the reality of Apollo.   
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #70 on: November 02, 2014, 04:01:47 PM »
The box could be set in the normal or auxiliary position; in the former setting it would turn off with low voltage and in the latter position it would continue to operate even under lower power conditions.
This is the only part that doesn't make complete sense to me. The Apollo Operations Handbook doesn't say anything about voltage levels, only that the SCE had two power supplies that would switch automatically if the primary outputs went out of spec, or manually with that switch. Since the switchover didn't occur automatically, I'm inclined to think that the primary supply was producing correct voltages at the time of the manual switchover; it was the brief loss of those voltages due to the deep dip in the +28V bus voltage that had scrambled the SCE hardware.

It makes sense that Bean would know it when the others didn't. Being the LMP (which really means "flight engineer") it was on his side of the panel.

Offline Glom

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #71 on: November 02, 2014, 04:02:00 PM »
I have to admit that my knowledge of Apollo 12 launch went as far as the lighting strike, I had no idea about the SCE to AUX scenario. I've watched a few YouTube videos today, read the flight transcript and read the above posts. Incredible stuff, these guys knew their business and so cool under pressure. Amazing.

Thanks again guys, I've learned a fair bit today  8)
Indeed. And it demonstrates just how rich the story is and how absurd the conspiracy theory is when you realise this.

Also, I love the mug. Is it actually available anywhere?

Offline ka9q

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #72 on: November 02, 2014, 04:03:30 PM »
Aaron called it "a natural curiosity about how things work". I think that its a common thread among engineers and scientists.
Yes. If he were completely honest he'd also attribute it to a fair amount of luck. If that malfunction had never occurred in testing while he was watching, he never would gotten curious about it and investigated the reason.

Of course, luck favors the prepared.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #73 on: November 02, 2014, 04:13:26 PM »
Aaron called it "a natural curiosity about how things work". I think that its a common thread among engineers and scientists.
Yes. If he were completely honest he'd also attribute it to a fair amount of luck. If that malfunction had never occurred in testing while he was watching, he never would gotten curious about it and investigated the reason.

Of course, luck favors the prepared.



I agree. The harder I work, the luckier I get!
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Noldi400

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Re: Is it possible to convert a HB?
« Reply #74 on: November 02, 2014, 04:34:43 PM »
Also, I love the mug. Is it actually available anywhere?

There's quite a variety, I imagine. Google "sce to aux".
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz