Author Topic: NASA photographic record of Manned Moonlanding:Is there evidence of fabrication?  (Read 361013 times)

Offline sts60

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...What I did say is we have no way of determining precise flux values of the wide variety of radiation in question with any specific mission parameters because space weather conditions are constantly changing, and to be frank, NASA is totally unwilling to publish detailed information about the translunar injection trajectories.
No, the translunar injection parameters are publicly available.

They claim to have skirted the worst of the radiation, which I agree is possible but the language is deceiving.....even if you "skirt" the worst of the heat and radiation of a thermonuclear blast by standing behind a tree, 5 miles from ground zero you're still going to be vaporized.
What quantitative data do you have that shows the space radiation environment, in or out of the Van Allen belts, is comparable to a "thermonuclear blast"?  Even allowing for hyperbole?

There's another problem with your claim.  You've said the crews would die quickly if they went through the belts.  But all sorts of spacecraft transit and operate inside the belts, using the same radiation models originally developed in the run-up to Apollo, and used for Apollo mission planning.  If what you claim was true, these many spacecraft would be failing not just prematurely, but rapidly.  We observe the opposite.  In other words, everyday operational experience refutes your claim.

Even if we knew the precise trajectory they took (WHICH WE DO NOT!) ,unless we had a continuous and accurate measurement, we still wouldn't be able to give a definitive quantitative analysis with precise numbers.
Bob Braeunig did exactly that, using the trajectory information you said NASA was "totally unwilling to publish".  The numbers are sufficiently precise to provide an acceptably-bounded estimate.  Would you care to reconsider your claim?

...A few things most of us are aware of is the amount of radiation required to expose film is very tiny fraction of what causes biological effects. X rays penetrate thin layers of aluminum practically as if it is transparent, and secondary radiation from high energy particle interaction with metals like aluminum creates electromagnetic radiation (including especially x rays) and secondary particle radiation as well.
What energies of X-rays find aluminum "practically transparent"?  What have you done to determine these X-rays occur in the space environment in any significant amount?

If you will concede all of the above is totally accurate, i believe we can continue.
I cannot concede what is observed to be incorrect, nor what is unsubstantiated.  Sorry.

What has been said in my absence does not require a response, as far as I can see. It is just the usual propaganda, personal attacks and BS.

All I've asked in your absence is why you claimed the two photographs you posted on the first page were in large part "totally undeveloped".  You haven't answered that question.  Would you please do so?  Thank you in advance.

Offline Romulus

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Romulus,

Where did you get your independent knowledge from? What publications did you use to self study?
Independence knowledge does not imply what you appear to be claiming it does.it simply means I do not require Google  searching to pretend proficiency like you do.


Offline Bob B.

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Even if we knew the precise trajectory they took (WHICH WE DO NOT!) ,unless we had a continuous and accurate measurement, we still wouldn't be able to give a definitive quantitative analysis with precise numbers.

Bullshit.
Post your proof or shut up

It's much too long to post here, but I compute the trajectories here:

Apollo 11's Translunar Trajectory

And I compute the radiation doses here:

Apollo and the Van Allen Belts

It is probably way over your head, but I'd be happy to try explain to you any parts that you don't understand.

(ETA) It's probably too so to delve into the radiation analysis.  At this point in time we seem to be focusing on the trajectory part.  We'll get to the Van Allen Belts later.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 07:57:01 PM by Bob B. »

Offline JayUtah

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Independence knowledge does not imply what you appear to be claiming it does.it simply means I do not require Google  searching to pretend proficiency like you do.

You were not asked to speculate on where and how others obtained their knowledge.  You were asked to describe the sources by which you  informed yourself.  Please be specific.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Romulus

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...What I did say is we have no way of determining precise flux values of the wide variety of radiation in question with any specific mission parameters because space weather conditions are constantly changing, and to be frank, NASA is totally unwilling to publish detailed information about the translunar injection trajectories.
No, the translunar injection parameters are publicly available.

They claim to have skirted the worst of the radiation, which I agree is possible but the language is deceiving.....even if you "skirt" the worst of the heat and radiation of a thermonuclear blast by standing behind a tree, 5 miles from ground zero you're still going to be vaporized.
What quantitative data do you have that shows the space radiation environment, in or out of the Van Allen belts, is comparable to a "thermonuclear blast"?  Even allowing for hyperbole?

There's another problem with your claim.  You've said the crews would die quickly if they went through the belts.  But all sorts of spacecraft transit and operate inside the belts, using the same radiation models originally developed in the run-up to Apollo, and used for Apollo mission planning.  If what you claim was true, these many spacecraft would be failing not just prematurely, but rapidly.  We observe the opposite.  In other words, everyday operational experience refutes your claim.

Even if we knew the precise trajectory they took (WHICH WE DO NOT!) ,unless we had a continuous and accurate measurement, we still wouldn't be able to give a definitive quantitative analysis with precise numbers.
Bob Braeunig did exactly that, using the trajectory information you said NASA was "totally unwilling to publish".  The numbers are sufficiently precise to provide an acceptably-bounded estimate.  Would you care to reconsider your claim?

Bob Braeunig has a reputation as a liar and a NASA paid propagandist. HE IS POSTING HERE UNDER THE ID Bob B and I have had previous experience with him and know him to be totally lacking in integrity, ability and general credibility.



All I've asked in your absence is why you claimed the two photographs you posted on the first page were in large part "totally undeveloped".  You haven't answered that question.  Would you please do so?  Thank you in advance.

Fair question. In the photos posted, there are large areas of what appear to be a shadow. In that shadow there is very little if any light exposure of the film in the photo. If radiation fogging were there in even small amounts, photos like this would reveal it.

Offline DD Brock

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Even if we knew the precise trajectory they took (WHICH WE DO NOT!) ,unless we had a continuous and accurate measurement, we still wouldn't be able to give a definitive quantitative analysis with precise numbers.

Bullshit.
Post your proof or shut up

Now why doesn't this condition apply to you, Bub?

Offline Bob B.

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You mentioned a book called "Apollo by the Numbers" claiming it  could provide continuous measurements of radiation in all of the types required and apparently a precise translunar injection trajectory.

All that is needed to compute the trajectory is a single position and velocity, which "Apollo by the Numbers" gives us.  I wouldn't expect you to know how to do it, but qualified people such as myself can certainly do so.  I don't believe "Apollo by the Numbers" gives us anything about radiation, so other sources are needed for that.  For the Van Allen Belts, for example, this data is contained in the AE8/AP8 models.

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Bob Braeunig has a reputation as a liar and a NASA paid propagandist. HE IS POSTING HERE UNDER THE ID Bob B and I have had previous experience with him and know him to be totally lacking in integrity, ability and general credibility.

You've been rumbled Bob.  ;)
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline Romulus

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Independence knowledge does not imply what you appear to be claiming it does.it simply means I do not require Google  searching to pretend proficiency like you do.

You were not asked to speculate on where and how others obtained their knowledge.  You were asked to describe the sources by which you  informed yourself.  Please be specific.

Am I to understand you want me to go through every book I have ever read, every paper , every lecture, every  professor, every source of knowledge?

Get real Mr.Windley. That would take me the rest of the night and it still wouldn't be but a small fraction.

Offline Chief

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Romulus,

Where did you get your independent knowledge from? What publications did you use to self study?
Independence knowledge does not imply what you appear to be claiming it does.it simply means I do not require Google  searching to pretend proficiency like you do.

Actually, and with respect, I was genuinely interested. I wasn't alluding to Google.

Secondly, I have never pretended to have any proficiency in anything I am unfamiliar with, I am intimately familiar with aircraft systems and structures and the physics involved with flight and flight loads and for that matter accident investigation, I am not proficient in radiation in space. I am very interested and would like to learn and understand.

I would like to know the background of your knowledge. We can't all be like Isaac Newton and bugger off to Cambridge in our early twenties and invent calculus. You must have gained your knowledge from somewhere.

I just wanted to know.

Offline Romulus

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You mentioned a book called "Apollo by the Numbers" claiming it  could provide continuous measurements of radiation in all of the types required and apparently a precise translunar injection trajectory.

All that is needed to compute the trajectory is a single position and velocity, which "Apollo by the Numbers" gives us.  I wouldn't expect you to know how to do it, but qualified people such as myself can certainly do so.  I don't believe "Apollo by the Numbers" gives us anything about radiation, so other sources are needed for that.  For the Van Allen Belts, for example, this data is contained in the AE8/AP8 models.
[/quote}
This is not entirely true.  But We already actually know two points that had to be on it , obviously.  THE SEA OF TRANQUILITY AND CAPE CANAVERAL

Offline Bob B.

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Can you please post the specific translunar injection  claimed by NASA with, say Apollo 11, so as to save me from being required to buy a book that I do not wish to fund?

GET: 002:50:13.03
KSC Date: 16-Jul-1969
GMT Date: 16-Jul-1969
KSC Time: 12:22:13 PM
Time Zone: EDT
GMT Time: 16:22:13

Altitude (ft): 1,097,229
Altitude (n mi): 180.581
Earth-Fixed Velocity (ft/sec): 34,195.6
Space-Fixed Velocity (ft/sec): 35,545.6
Geocentric Latitude (deg N): 9.9204
Geodetic Latitude (deg N): 9.983
Longitude (deg E): -164.8373

Flight Path Angle (deg): 7.367
Heading Angle (deg E of N): 60.073
Inclination (deg): 31.383
Descending Node (deg): 121.847
Eccentricity: 0.97696

« Last Edit: February 04, 2015, 06:25:21 PM by Bob B. »

Offline JayUtah

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Bob Braeunig has a reputation as a liar and a NASA paid propagandist.

According to whom and what evidence?

Quote
HE IS POSTING HERE UNDER THE ID Bob B and I have had previous experience with him and know him to be totally lacking in integrity, ability and general credibility.

Then you should have no problem showing where his analysis is in error.  Please do so.

Quote
Fair question. In the photos posted, there are large areas of what appear to be a shadow. In that shadow there is very little if any light exposure of the film in the photo. If radiation fogging were there in even small amounts, photos like this would reveal it.

Is that what "developed" and "undeveloped" mean in photography?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Am I to understand you want me to go through every book I have ever read, every paper , every lecture, every  professor, every source of knowledge?

No.  But something more specific than simply, "I'm smarter than you," would be appreciated.  Thank you.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Fair question. In the photos posted, there are large areas of what appear to be a shadow.

Quote
In that shadow there is very little if any light exposure of the film in the photo.

Does it appear to be shadow or is it shadow? Scientists don't write like this. Can you see why we don't believe you have any form of knowledge.

Quote
If radiation fogging were there in even small amounts, photos like this would reveal it.

Flux and photon energy, what is the difference?
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch