Author Topic: Some doubts.  (Read 25351 times)

Offline Gazpar

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Some doubts.
« on: June 23, 2015, 02:17:49 AM »
Hi guys, I believe the landing happened but I have some doubts and I need someone to explain it.

Does this evidence prove the hoax?

Missing lunar rocks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_and_missing_moon_rocks

Missing telemetry data
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_11_missing_tapes

Radiation of Van Allen Belts
http://fas.org/spp/military/docops/usaf/2020/app-f.htm
Quote
To put the space weather radiation hazard to human life in perspective, at geostationary orbit, with only 0.1 gm/cm2 of aluminum shielding thickness, the predicted radiation dose (REM) for one year continuous exposure, with minimum-moderate solar activity, is estimated to be about 3,000,000; using 5.0 gm/cm2 of aluminum shielding, the REM for one year continuous exposure would be reduced to about 550. (Note: REM = dose (RAD) x Relative Biological Effectiveness (RBE) of particular ionizing radiation.) Although drastically reduced by shielding, 550 REM for a sample population would cause radiation sickness and about 50 percent deaths. Astronauts protected with only a spacesuit during normal-length extra-vehicular activity at geostationary altitude could receive about 0.43 REM per day under minimum to moderate solar activity conditions, which is sufficient to damage the eyes and other vital organs. Under high solar activity, and most importantly during large solar flare occurrences, daily REM values could be a thousand-fold higher and probably lethal. In comparison, an earth-bound person would have an estimated total yearly radiation dosage in the range of 0.17 to 2.6 REM; the daily dosage would be approximately 4.7 x 10-4 to 7.1 x 10-3 REM (2 to 3 orders of magnitude less than the astronauts daily dosage in our example).
What does this means?

Scothlite

What is that?
Is from some guy named Jay Weidner, is he trustworthy?

Is it possible that USA could have bribed Russia with grain shipments to keep the conspiracy?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Offline Valis

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Re: Some doubts.
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2015, 03:00:38 AM »
Hi guys, I believe the landing happened but I have some doubts and I need someone to explain it.

Does this evidence prove the hoax?

Missing lunar rocks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_and_missing_moon_rocks
What evidence of a hoax is this? There's some 400 kg of lunar rocks and soil samples, extensively documented. Why would some rocks that were given as gifts and subsequently went missing imply a hoax?
Quote
Missing telemetry data
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_11_missing_tapes
What about all the data that hasn't been misplaced or overwritten? Are you aware that we have lot of the Apollo 11 missing data in different format (lower quality video, for example)?
Quote
Radiation of Van Allen Belts
Van Allen Belts have been widely discussed here, so I'm sure a brief search would easily get you the details. In short, the Apollo flights tried to avoid the belts, and went through a region of lower particle flux to minimize the radiation exposure.
Quote
What is that?
Lunar Roving Vehicle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Roving_Vehicle
Quote
Is from some guy named Jay Weidner, is he trustworthy?
See for example http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=89.0
Quote
Is it possible that USA could have bribed Russia with grain shipments to keep the conspiracy?
Did they bribe all the others who did independent confirmation of the flights too?

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Some doubts.
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2015, 03:09:12 AM »

Is from some guy named Jay Weidner, is he trustworthy?


He's another crackpot that thinks that Kubrick filmed the moon landings (I wonder does he even realise that Kubrick half his life in the UK and that most of his epic movies were shot in the UK)

Have a look here:
http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=89.0
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Count Zero

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Re: Some doubts.
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2015, 07:08:47 AM »
Hi guys, I believe the landing happened but I have some doubts and I need someone to explain it.

Does this evidence prove the hoax?

Missing lunar rocks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_and_missing_moon_rocks

Feel free to peruse the Lunar Sample Compendium:  Link

If you are a scientist, you may request lunar samples for study here:  Link

Quote
Missing telemetry data
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_11_missing_tapes

Last year my family took our first trip ever to Green Bay, Wisconsin for my brother-in-law's wedding.  It was a lovely trip, and I took hundreds of pictures - all of which I subsequently deleted from my camera's memory chip.  An idiotic mistake?  No, because I'd transferred all of the images to two other computers and other data backup media.

Similarly, all of the data on the Apollo 11 telemetry tape was transcribed and the embedded slow-scan video signal was converted to conventional video tape.  Nothing was really lost-lost.  In the last decade we realized that modern computers could do a better conversion of the video, but we didn't know that 30 years ago.  None of the footage has been lost.

Quote
Radiation of Van Allen Belts
http://fas.org/spp/military/docops/usaf/2020/app-f.htm
Quote
To put the space weather radiation hazard to human life in perspective, at geostationary orbit, with only 0.1 gm/cm2 of aluminum shielding thickness, the predicted radiation dose (REM) for one year continuous exposure, with minimum-moderate solar activity, is estimated to be about 3,000,000; using 5.0 gm/cm2 of aluminum shielding, the REM for one year continuous exposure would be reduced to about 550. (Note: REM = dose (RAD) x Relative Biological Effectiveness (RBE) of particular ionizing radiation.) Although drastically reduced by shielding, 550 REM for a sample population would cause radiation sickness and about 50 percent deaths. Astronauts protected with only a spacesuit during normal-length extra-vehicular activity at geostationary altitude could receive about 0.43 REM per day under minimum to moderate solar activity conditions, which is sufficient to damage the eyes and other vital organs. Under high solar activity, and most importantly during large solar flare occurrences, daily REM values could be a thousand-fold higher and probably lethal. In comparison, an earth-bound person would have an estimated total yearly radiation dosage in the range of 0.17 to 2.6 REM; the daily dosage would be approximately 4.7 x 10-4 to 7.1 x 10-3 REM (2 to 3 orders of magnitude less than the astronauts daily dosage in our example).
What does this means?

It means that it's a good thing that the Apollo missions avoided that part of the Van Allen Belt and were short enough to minimize the risk of getting caught by a solar flare (kind of like how you avoid getting your picnic rained on).

Here are a couple of videos illustrating the path Apollo 11 took to avoid the thickest part of the belts:  TLI Orbit, TLI Orbit Slice

Here is a report on the American experience with space radiation:  Link

The Soviets also wanted to send men to the Moon.  They cancelled these plans for political reasons, but not before they flew their Zond spacecraft around the Moon several times unmanned.  Here is their report on the radiation environment:  Link  (Note in particular the last sentence on page 4).

The Japanese know a thing or two about radiation exposure.  Here is a recent paper they did on shielding astronauts for long-term lunar stays:  Link

Quote
Is it possible that USA could have bribed Russia with grain shipments to keep the conspiracy?

No.  We were fighting proxy wars with them around the world.  The opportunity to disgrace their enemy would have been too good to miss.  Besides, Anybody on Earth with the proper equipment could track the Apollo missions.  Here is one man's story:  Link.

Hope this helps.  It's barely a snowflake on the tip of the iceberg of information freely available about Apollo.
"What makes one step a giant leap is all the steps before."

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Some doubts.
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2015, 07:16:17 AM »

Last year my family took our first trip ever to Green Bay, Wisconsin for my brother-in-law's wedding.  It was a lovely trip, and I took hundreds of pictures - all of which I subsequently deleted from my camera's memory chip.  An idiotic mistake?  No, because I'd transferred all of the images to two other computers and other data backup media.


And even if the images WERE permanently lost, that would not mean that the trip didn't happen. In addition, there would be other evidence to support the trip- testimonies from family members, receipts from shops for items/services purchased, mobile phone location records, records of calls made, distances logged on the car odometer/tickets for rail/flights, check-in information and so-on.
If I then popped up and claimed "A-ha...the images for you trip were deleted, therefore your trip was clearly faked" then I am sure that you would look on me as an idiot. I could then confirm that status by further claiming that your act of deleting the images was a "false flag"  action or the action of a whistle-blower trying to tell the world that you were involved in a conspiracy.

Welcome to the world and crazy thought-processes of hoax-believers.....
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Count Zero

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Re: Some doubts.
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2015, 07:29:52 AM »
Good point!
"What makes one step a giant leap is all the steps before."

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Some doubts.
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2015, 07:49:56 AM »
Here is one man's story:  Link.

My Dad was a ham radio operator, and he tried to do this but was unable to detect anything other than the occasional short bursts of barely audible sounds that might have been voice.

There is one statement in this article that I don't believe they have right...

"Baysinger’s wife and daughter watched the Apollo 11 landing on TV while Baysinger and Rutherford listened via Baysinger’s equipment.  The signal on the home-built equipment came through approximately 5-10 seconds earlier than the signal on TV.  Baysinger figures NASA or the TV network [I assume it was probably CBS] put in a delay in case they needed to edit out anything embarrassing."

IMO their conclusion regarding the reason for the time delay it is wrong or at worst incomplete. The signal they were receiving with their equipment was line-of-sight in a direct line from the S-Band transmitters at "Tranquillity Base", but the TV signal they were getting would have been relayed via the DSN receivers to Houston and then back out on microwave communications lines or coaxial cables to the broadcasters and through several relays to where they were watching in Louisiana. I'm sure someone like KA9Q or Dwight would confirm that these "relay delays" can add up several seconds.
 
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: Some doubts.
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2015, 07:59:26 AM »
What is that?
Is from some guy named Jay Weidner, is he trustworthy?


Welcome to the forum.  By coming here you have taken the first step in seeing that trust is not the needed or desired main characteristic of knowledge.  Learning is.    The US space program, starting with the first satellite launch, forms a well documented chain of events that led up to the Apollo 11 landing.  This includes.

Explorer 1 which detected the Van Allen Belts
The Mercury program
The Gemini program
The Surveyor program


If you learn about these it is easy to seen the chain of invention, exploration and discovery that lead to the Apollo program.  Further reading on the Apollo program from its start in the mid sixties show that the landings were not a isolated phenomenon, as hoax proponents would lead one to believe.  But were in fact the culmination of more than a decade of work by hundreds of thousands of people.  There is no need to trust somebody on a web page, explore and discover for yourself.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 08:02:52 AM by Echnaton »
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Offline Gazpar

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Re: Some doubts.
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2015, 12:00:49 PM »
Soo much thanks guys, I really needed this explanations.
But I have one final doubt:
Could the soviets know it was faked but they could not tell it to the world because they are isolated from the rest or because they were losing and nobody wanted to hear them about the landings?

Offline Allan F

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Re: Some doubts.
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2015, 12:26:28 PM »
IF they had evidence, IF that evidence was verifiable, the world would have listened. BUT zero evidence against the Apollo moon landings have today been verifiable. And the evidence FOR the Apollo moon landings has been verified - and is continuously being verified.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline gillianren

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Re: Some doubts.
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2015, 12:56:51 PM »
Could the soviets know it was faked but they could not tell it to the world because they are isolated from the rest or because they were losing and nobody wanted to hear them about the landings?

Can you try looking into the history of the era and tell me what makes you think this was possible or that it's the best explanation for how they actually responded?  Because what it looks like what you're doing right now is just kind of throwing out a bunch of things without really thinking about them.  After all, if the Moon landings were faked, the Soviets weren't losing.  They'd sent craft, albeit unmanned, to the Moon themselves, and it got overshadowed by the manned craft of Apollo.  Sure, they were nowhere near a manned mission, but the world at large didn't know that. 
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

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Offline gwiz

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Re: Some doubts.
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2015, 01:00:03 PM »
The Soviets knew it was real because they were tracking the Apollo missions themselves.
http://novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/mag/2005/1045/24532/

My first post to the old Apollo-Hoax forum was a heads-up when this report came out in 2005.
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Offline nomuse

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Re: Some doubts.
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2015, 01:09:38 PM »
Not to join the dogpile, but missing rocks and video just throw into stronger relief that there are rocks and video. Unlike the Watergate tapes, the gaps in these are not conveniently placed right where you would most expect a smoking gun. For that, you'd have to have, well, no geology samples, and maybe a quarter of the video record.

On Weidner:

1) One of his arguments for the necessity of backdrops is simply wrong. If he doesn't know what a hyperfocal distance is, he had no business passing himself off as an expert in camera technology.

2) One of his "tells" for use of Scotchlite is, well, refuted by the actual use of it by the filmmaker he cites. This discovery is so far unique to me which is why I'm being roundabout in describing it, but if anyone were to actually read up on the use of front projection in "2001" they'd realize that Weidner did not do his research.

Offline nomuse

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Re: Some doubts.
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2015, 01:22:35 PM »
I just have to add; every time a hoaxie like Weidner claims he sees evidence of typical cinematography tricks, they demonstrate only that they have a deluded sense of competence in their understanding of the film world as well.

One of the ones I really like about Weidner is that he claims the sharp demarcation between what he thinks is foreground, and what is deep background, is a straight line, and therefor direct evidence of the bottom edge of a front projection screen.

Here's the problems with that;

1) Many of the photographs and not a little video have "actors" moving far into the midground. Take the "house rock" stroll. Simple geometry shows the purported front projection screen would be vast, vaster than most green screens (these days, they just screen around the actors and use a garbage matt to take care of the rest of the frame). And very much larger than any recorded use of front projection.

2) No-one leaves the edge of the backdrop exposed like that. Not Hollywood, not the theater, not even BBC doing black-and-white episodes of Doctor Who. They break up that too-obvious line.

3) It isn't even a straight line anyhow.



Offline Echnaton

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Re: Some doubts.
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2015, 01:27:33 PM »
Could the soviets know it was faked but they could not tell it to the world because they are isolated from the rest or because they were losing and nobody wanted to hear them about the landings?

Speculating on what a very large number of people might or could have done 50 years ago is not a very productive.  The Soviet Union was much like NASA, a collective of diverse interests under one umbrella organization. Albeit with a number of notable differences too.  As totalitarian as the USSR was, there is no one "Soviet" answer to cover any particular question.  Learning comes from examining the historical record not speculating from hypothetical motivations.  So when someone starts doing that, it is wise to withhold acceptance on the truth of what they say.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett