Author Topic: Orion shielding from radiation.  (Read 34454 times)

Offline mako88sb

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Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2015, 01:16:16 PM »
Thanks for the info Bob B. Very interesting. I read somewhere shortly after the recovery, that they also put a new type of radiation detector on board. just wondering if you know anything about that and if it met expectations?

Offline grmcdorman

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Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2015, 01:17:16 PM »
You should also be aware, Gazpar, that the unmanned boilerplate test flight, as mentioned above, intentionally went into more intense regions of the belts. Crewed missions will probably take a different flight profile, although I don't know what the plans are for those.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2015, 01:26:08 PM »
It is important to remember that we are talking about a Orion test object designed to gather information on a limited number of situations. So the comparisons to a functional crewed Apollo mission will be indirect and highly technical in nature.   It may be more informative to look at Apollo capsule development and test flights.  The Apollo capsule contract was first awarded in 1961 for use in the direct assent mode.  The Block 2 was proposed in 1964 due to the mission change to LOR and to incorporate the knowledge gained in the intervening time.  Similarly we can expect the Orion to change as research and mission plans develop.  Since it is envisioned for longer duration use, Orion has to meet radiation challenges that are not just from the Van Allen belts but from longer term risks outside of the belts.

We also have to consider that the Apollo program benefited from the Gemini flights, which included trips into the Van Allen belts.  It's not that this information is useless, but that 40 to 50 year old information is incomplete by today's standards because it was not acquired with the current knowledge requirements in mind. 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 01:31:53 PM by Echnaton »
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Offline Gazpar

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Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2015, 01:52:29 PM »
Van Allen belt radiation consists of high-energy electrons and protons in the inner belt, and high-energy electrons in the outer belt.

The most energetic electrons encountered along the trajectories flown by Apollo have an energy of about 7 MeV.  The 7 g/cm shielding provided by the CM hull is about twice that needed to completely stop a 7 MeV electron.  Electrons, therefore, were of no concern to Apollo as they were virtually all blocked by the hull. 

At a given energy, protons are less penetrating than electrons.  Therefore, virtually all protons on the low end of the energy spectrum were easily blocking by the spacecraft shielding.  The only real concern from a radiation standpoint were the most highly energetic protons, which can exceed 100 MeV.  These protons could penetrate Apollo's shielding and potentially cause damage.  Fortunately, high-energy particles are far fewer in number than low-energy particles (by many orders of magnitude).  Apollo also used a highspeed injection that allowed it to pass by the inner radiation belt in just a manner of minutes.  Also note that the inner radiation belt is a torus (doughnut shaped) that is most intense near the center and weaker near the edges.  Apollo flew inclined trajectories that bypassed the intense middle regions and grazed along the weak edges.  All of this adds up to a radiation condition that was not of significant concern.  Apollo passed through the region quickly and through the weak outer edges where there just weren't enough high-energy protons to cause damage.

The Orion test flight is an entirely different animal.  After performing one low orbit of Earth, Orion fired it engine to alter its trajectory.  The apogee was raised to 5790 km and the perigee was lowered to -29.8 km (below the surface of Earth).  This orbit allowed Orion to pass through the inner Van Allen belt to test the spacecraft's radiation resistance, and then to make a high-speed reentry to test the spacecraft's thermal protection.

The inner Van Allen belt's altitude above Earth's surface ranges from about 1000 km to 6000 km.  Therefore, the entire part of Orion's orbit above 1000 km was within the radiation belt.  From Orion's orbital parameters, I calculate that it spent 118 minutes in this region of space.  For comparison, Apollo passed through the same range of altitudes in just 17 minutes, once on the way to the Moon and once on the way back, for a total of 34 minutes.  The duration of Orion's passage through the inner radiation belt was about 3.5 times longer than Apollo's.

It must also be noted that Orion's inclination was 28.8 degrees, which is lower than the inclinations used by Apollo.  Orion was therefore closer to the more intense middle region of the radiation belt.  More importantly, the portion of Orion's orbit above 1000 km spanned an arc of 229 degrees.  This means that Orion had to pass through at least one of its nodes while within the radiation belt.  The significance of this is that at some point during its passage through the radiation belt, Orion had to cross the latitudes at which the radiation belt is its most intense.

I don't have all the specific data needed to make a detailed quantitative analysis of Orion versus Apollo.  However, based on the orbital data that I do have and my past experience studying the radiation belts, I think it is safe to say that Orion's radiation exposure was dozens of times greater than what Apollo was exposed to.
That makes sense.
Orion has modern electronics (more susceptible to radiation) and NASA wanted to test them on high radiation because Orion is designed to make deep space travel with longer duration than Apollo (less susceptible than radiation). So Orion went to the worst parts of the belts to test its resistance against high radiation (radiation Apollo didnt had to be protected with in the first place)
It all part of collecting data, I understand now.

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2015, 02:48:25 PM »
I read somewhere shortly after the recovery, that they also put a new type of radiation detector on board. just wondering if you know anything about that and if it met expectations?

I have not read or heard any results from that.

Orion has modern electronics (more susceptible to radiation) and NASA wanted to test them on high radiation because Orion is designed to make deep space travel with longer duration than Apollo (less susceptible than radiation). So Orion went to the worst parts of the belts to test its resistance against high radiation (radiation Apollo didnt had to be protected with in the first place)
It all part of collecting data, I understand now.

That sums it up pretty well.

Offline mako88sb

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Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2015, 03:28:10 PM »
I read somewhere shortly after the recovery, that they also put a new type of radiation detector on board. just wondering if you know anything about that and if it met expectations?

I have not read or heard any results from that.


I looked into it more and this is what I recall reading about. I didn't realize that it had already been tested on the ISS:

http://www.uh.edu/news-events/stories/2014/November/111914SpaceRadiation

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2015, 04:13:52 PM »
Van Allen belt radiation consists of high-energy electrons and protons in the inner belt, and high-energy electrons in the outer belt.

The most energetic electrons encountered along the trajectories flown by Apollo have an energy of about 7 MeV.  The 7 g/cm shielding provided by the CM hull is about twice that needed to completely stop a 7 MeV electron.  Electrons, therefore, were of no concern to Apollo as they were virtually all blocked by the hull. 

At a given energy, protons are less penetrating than electrons.  Therefore, virtually all protons on the low end of the energy spectrum were easily blocking by the spacecraft shielding.  The only real concern from a radiation standpoint were the most highly energetic protons, which can exceed 100 MeV.  These protons could penetrate Apollo's shielding and potentially cause damage.  Fortunately, high-energy particles are far fewer in number than low-energy particles (by many orders of magnitude).  Apollo also used a highspeed injection that allowed it to pass by the inner radiation belt in just a manner of minutes.  Also note that the inner radiation belt is a torus (doughnut shaped) that is most intense near the center and weaker near the edges.  Apollo flew inclined trajectories that bypassed the intense middle regions and grazed along the weak edges.  All of this adds up to a radiation condition that was not of significant concern.  Apollo passed through the region quickly and through the weak outer edges where there just weren't enough high-energy protons to cause damage.

The Orion test flight is an entirely different animal.  After performing one low orbit of Earth, Orion fired its engine to alter its trajectory.  The apogee was raised to 5790 km and the perigee was lowered to -29.8 km (below the surface of Earth).  This orbit allowed Orion to pass through the inner Van Allen belt to test the spacecraft's radiation resistance, and then to make a high-speed reentry to test the spacecraft's thermal protection.

The inner Van Allen belt's altitude above Earth's surface ranges from about 1000 km to 6000 km.  Therefore, the entire part of Orion's orbit above 1000 km was within the radiation belt.  From Orion's orbital parameters, I calculate that it spent 118 minutes in this region of space.  For comparison, Apollo passed through the same range of altitudes in just 17 minutes, once on the way to the Moon and once on the way back, for a total of 34 minutes.  The duration of Orion's passage through the inner radiation belt was about 3.5 times longer than Apollo's.

It must also be noted that Orion's inclination was 28.8 degrees, which is lower than the inclinations used by Apollo.  Orion was therefore closer to the more intense middle region of the radiation belt.  More importantly, the portion of Orion's orbit above 1000 km spanned an arc of 229 degrees.  This means that Orion had to pass through at least one of its nodes while within the radiation belt.  The significance of this is that at some point during its passage through the radiation belt, Orion had to cross the latitudes at which the radiation belt is its most intense.

I don't have all the specific data needed to make a detailed quantitative analysis of Orion versus Apollo.  However, based on the orbital data that I do have and my past experience studying the radiation belts, I think it is safe to say that Orion's radiation exposure was dozens of times greater than what Apollo was exposed to.
This is why I love this site. Information like this

Further reading Gazpar

http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/tour/AAvan.html

Note especially the section on Human Impacts about 3/4 of the way down the page

If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2015, 05:47:28 PM »
I'm really thinking about writing about the radiation environment in space and putting to bed the myths and utter BS of Ralph Rene and the BFDU. Dwight suggested this to me a long time ago, but sometimes I feel it is such an esoteric subject that it would not be worth the while. Bob has produced a great analysis of the van Allen belts in context of Apollo.

I'm yet to see the BFDU actually quote this NOAA page:

http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/noaa-scales-explanation

The real problem for any manned space flight beyond the VABs is the Solar Proton Event, and sadly for historical reasons, the term solar flare and SPE are interchanged. The BFDU and other prominent CTs cite every NOAA source they can gain mileage from, but will not address the information in the above link that actually shows the real problems astronauts will encounter.

Back to finding the wrong negative in the differentiation of a trigonometric nightmare. :(
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Offline Gazpar

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Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2015, 09:59:08 PM »
Van Allen belt radiation consists of high-energy electrons and protons in the inner belt, and high-energy electrons in the outer belt.

The most energetic electrons encountered along the trajectories flown by Apollo have an energy of about 7 MeV.  The 7 g/cm shielding provided by the CM hull is about twice that needed to completely stop a 7 MeV electron.  Electrons, therefore, were of no concern to Apollo as they were virtually all blocked by the hull. 

At a given energy, protons are less penetrating than electrons.  Therefore, virtually all protons on the low end of the energy spectrum were easily blocking by the spacecraft shielding.  The only real concern from a radiation standpoint were the most highly energetic protons, which can exceed 100 MeV.  These protons could penetrate Apollo's shielding and potentially cause damage.  Fortunately, high-energy particles are far fewer in number than low-energy particles (by many orders of magnitude).  Apollo also used a highspeed injection that allowed it to pass by the inner radiation belt in just a manner of minutes.  Also note that the inner radiation belt is a torus (doughnut shaped) that is most intense near the center and weaker near the edges.  Apollo flew inclined trajectories that bypassed the intense middle regions and grazed along the weak edges.  All of this adds up to a radiation condition that was not of significant concern.  Apollo passed through the region quickly and through the weak outer edges where there just weren't enough high-energy protons to cause damage.

The Orion test flight is an entirely different animal.  After performing one low orbit of Earth, Orion fired its engine to alter its trajectory.  The apogee was raised to 5790 km and the perigee was lowered to -29.8 km (below the surface of Earth).  This orbit allowed Orion to pass through the inner Van Allen belt to test the spacecraft's radiation resistance, and then to make a high-speed reentry to test the spacecraft's thermal protection.

The inner Van Allen belt's altitude above Earth's surface ranges from about 1000 km to 6000 km.  Therefore, the entire part of Orion's orbit above 1000 km was within the radiation belt.  From Orion's orbital parameters, I calculate that it spent 118 minutes in this region of space.  For comparison, Apollo passed through the same range of altitudes in just 17 minutes, once on the way to the Moon and once on the way back, for a total of 34 minutes.  The duration of Orion's passage through the inner radiation belt was about 3.5 times longer than Apollo's.

It must also be noted that Orion's inclination was 28.8 degrees, which is lower than the inclinations used by Apollo.  Orion was therefore closer to the more intense middle region of the radiation belt.  More importantly, the portion of Orion's orbit above 1000 km spanned an arc of 229 degrees.  This means that Orion had to pass through at least one of its nodes while within the radiation belt.  The significance of this is that at some point during its passage through the radiation belt, Orion had to cross the latitudes at which the radiation belt is its most intense.

I don't have all the specific data needed to make a detailed quantitative analysis of Orion versus Apollo.  However, based on the orbital data that I do have and my past experience studying the radiation belts, I think it is safe to say that Orion's radiation exposure was dozens of times greater than what Apollo was exposed to.
This is why I love this site. Information like this

Further reading Gazpar

http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/tour/AAvan.html

Note especially the section on Human Impacts about 3/4 of the way down the page
Reading it. thx

Offline ka9q

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Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2015, 10:24:59 PM »
Yeah, that would make sense but is there any reason why RTL are not susceptible to static, cosmic rays or EM radiation than CMOS chips?
Most electronics are susceptible to radiation, but some components (mainly semiconductors) are far more susceptible than others.

Radiation is energy, so what really matters is how much energy it delivers to a device (e.g., a transistor in an integrated circuit) compared to what that device normally handles or can handle. Until Apollo, all computers had been made from discrete components (transistors, etc) that tend to be physically large. (The Apollo Guidance Computer was the first computer made with integrated circuits.) Computers occupied large rooms and had to be continuously cooled, yet their processing speeds and memory sizes were quite low. Each component therefore could (and usually did) handle a lot of power, and with everything else the same, such a computer would probably be fairly radiation tolerant.

A modern commercial computer uses integrated circuits with many orders of magnitude more transistors than those used in the Apollo AGC, so each transistor has to be quite tiny. This means it can't handle much power without damage, and a very small amount of injected energy can overwhelm the energy of the data bits it is processing. The latter phenomenon causes transient errors without necessarily also causing permanent damage.

But it's possible to mitigate the effects of radiation on even these devices. One part is to use fabrication methods known to be rad-hard. Another is to add redundancy and cross-checking so that if one device (e.g., an entire CPU) has a transient error caused by a charged particle, it will be detected. Typically you have three devices working in parallel, with logic to compare their results and 'vote out' a CPU if it doesn't agree with the other two.

Offline sts60

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Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2015, 03:18:49 AM »
I read somewhere shortly after the recovery, that they also put a new type of radiation detector on board. just wondering if you know anything about that and if it met expectations?

I have not read or heard any results from that.


I looked into it more and this is what I recall reading about. I didn't realize that it had already been tested on the ISS:

http://www.uh.edu/news-events/stories/2014/November/111914SpaceRadiation
Ha, I know Larry!  Nice article.

Anyway, in this thread we talked about the similar voyages of Apollo 4 and 6.

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2015, 11:08:55 AM »
Anyway, in this thread we talked about the similar voyages of Apollo 4 and 6.

As a comparison to the image showing the trajectories of Apollos 4 and 6, the following shows the outbound trajectory of Apollo 11.


Offline bknight

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Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2015, 05:42:27 PM »
I just watched the launch of the first Orion mission.  And currently watching the Orbital ATK Cyngus launch.  I noticed in both a bright orange flare some distance from the vehicle.  Is this H2 burn off? I never noticed this from the STS launches or Saturn V.  Is this a new procedure to eliminate possible accumulation and fire at the booster?
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Offline ka9q

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Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2015, 06:50:15 PM »
Yes, all the launch sites I've seen that support hydrogen-fueled vehicles have burn ponds or flares to safely burn off vented hydrogen. When pure hydrogen (i.e., not pre-mixed with air) burns, it produces an orange flame.

See some Periodic Videos clips on hydrogen:



Note that in the second (newer) video the Professor revised his hypothesis on why the flame is orange. It appears to be the hydrogen itself.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 06:52:44 PM by ka9q »

Offline bknight

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Re: Orion shielding from radiation.
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2015, 07:17:55 PM »
I never noticed any in the Shuttle launches, where were they/it?

I do remember watching challenger replays and there was a small igniter at the base of the vehicle
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 07:21:20 PM by bknight »
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
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