Author Topic: TOO MUCH EDUCATION  (Read 133992 times)

Offline ApolloGnomon

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #75 on: May 22, 2012, 12:12:21 PM »
I simply have little patience with arguments of the form, "My untested, ignorant superstition trumps your degrees and years of experience."

Isn't that approach a form of "Poisoning the Well" fallacy anyway?

Offline AtomicDog

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #76 on: May 22, 2012, 12:27:30 PM »
If the picture attached to this post is of DAKDAK, I would hardly call him a "kid".  Looks all grown up to me, so I'll treat him like an adult.

Whoosh?
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #77 on: May 22, 2012, 03:10:27 PM »
Isn't that approach a form of "Poisoning the Well" fallacy anyway?

Whose approach?  Mine or his?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline ApolloGnomon

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #78 on: May 23, 2012, 02:04:17 AM »
I'm sorry to be unclear.

His approach, Dakdak's.

The entire OP premise of the thread is a form of Poisoning the Well:
"Education is bad. Therefor things learned by education can be dismissed..."

I dunno. Maybe I've run into this too many times at Delusional Idiots Forum - the entire notion that somehow education is bad, or unnecessary, or is a tool of the "elites" to brainwash the masses just seems like sour grapes.

Offline sts60

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #79 on: May 23, 2012, 10:17:57 AM »
If the picture attached to this post is of DAKDAK, I would hardly call him a "kid".  Looks all grown up to me, so I'll treat him like an adult.
Whoosh?

Ohhh... Pink Floyd... "Leave this kid alone."  I get it, finally.

Sometimes I'm just as thick as a brick in the wall.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2012, 01:40:37 PM »
Sometimes I'm just as thick as a brick in the wall.

Nice save!  It went over my head too...
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #81 on: May 23, 2012, 03:21:01 PM »
I'm sorry to be unclear.

His approach, Dakdak's.
No worries; you can argue it either way.  You can say he's poisoning the well by saying that if you're too educated, you can't see the "common sense" reasons why Apollo had to be fake.  Or you can say that I'm poisoning the well by handwaving at "superstition" rather than taking DAKDAK's argument on its merits.

The latter would be well-poisoning if I were to say, "He's a Fundamentalist Christian, so you can't expect him to make sense."  That would ignore the merits of his argument.  But if I say, "His dismissal of the scientific arguments for Apollo is more likely motivated by his Fundamentalist beliefs," that's a defensible position.

Quote
I dunno. Maybe I've run into this too many times at Delusional Idiots Forum - the entire notion that somehow education is bad, or unnecessary, or is a tool of the "elites" to brainwash the masses just seems like sour grapes.

I agree.  In the general case, people with appropriate education are dismissed as being too educated to see what others see plainly with their common sense.  They rely on the premise that everything always should be intuitively obvious, even when experience shows it isn't.  This is attractive to people who feel limited by their lack of education and want something to help them see education as a useless hindrance to practical knowledge.  Sour grapes, as you say.

And as you go on to say, a different flavor of this claim says that anyone who has been through the process of formal education has been brainwashed by the Powers That Be into thinking the way they want you to and knowing only what they want you to know.  Part of the general woo-woo philosophy is that certain people are innately more gifted at understanding the universe, and that this intuition gives them more insight and information than other people who have to rely upon the "crutch" of education and be thus stifled.

However the Fundamentalist provides another dimension.  Yes, it's still poisoning the well.  But the anti-education sentiment arises from the tendency of things learned in school to contradict directly the Fundamentalist's interpretation of holy writ.  Astrophysics and cosmology directly dispute the literal 7-day creation cycle.  Paleontology and biology directly dispute the ab origine speciation of organisms.  And if the Bible says the Moon emits light, then the belief had better be that the Moon emits light; any "science" that says differently is somehow wrong.

But equipped with a firm, unshakable faith in an absurdly literal interpretation of ancient writings, the Fundamentalist sees science as a perversion of the truth, as a way of substituting a feeble man-made knowledge for the God-approved truths that ought to prevail.  So it's seen as a more insidious, more direct threat to "approved" belief.  Instead of, "Oh, you poor misdirected and benighted sheeple," it's more like, "You instruments of the Devil!  Stay away from me."  There is an irony to that style of faith because the stronger and more rational the opposition, the more the adherent's faith is steeled to resist it.  He gets spiritual brownie points for holding to his faith no matter how attractive or sensible the alternative.  Some elements of science are literally characterized as the efforts of the Devil to tempt and try your faith.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline slang

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #82 on: May 23, 2012, 07:14:25 PM »
It's curious how fast the objections to years and years of training fade away when one desperately requires a heart surgeon, or a radiation therapy specialist, or a pilot, or a "my computer acts funny, fix it!" person, or a lawyer, or an architect. Or would DAKDAK waive his insurance policy, and let a 9th grade drop-out perform brain surgery on him if he needs it?

Offline Ranb

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #83 on: May 23, 2012, 09:21:41 PM »
..... Or would DAKDAK waive his insurance policy, and let a 9th grade drop-out perform brain surgery on him if he needs it?

I like.  But the irony will probably be lost on him.  :)

Ranb

Offline Glom

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2012, 03:50:29 PM »
I just saw the futurama robo evolution episode. It was in one way a rebuke to dak dak by tearing down the false dilemma of either having religious belief or accepting evolution.

Offline Kiwi

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2012, 09:16:52 AM »
Sometimes I'm just as thick as a brick in the wall.

Sometimes.  You haven't got anything to complain about then...  I'm often thick as a brick (got that song too) and sometimes very oftenAlways does seem a long way off though.  (Crosses fingers.)


It's curious how fast the objections to years and years of training fade away when one desperately requires a heart surgeon, or a radiation therapy specialist, or a pilot, or a "my computer acts funny, fix it!" person, or a lawyer, or an architect.

When I simply drive over a particular new bridge I'm glad it was designed and built by educated people.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 09:23:50 AM by Kiwi »
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline raven

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2012, 12:33:48 PM »
This international, multi-platform, computer network and the computer itself we, including DAKDAK, are using to communicate?
 I doubt they would work if designed by someone without 'too much education'.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2012, 12:52:38 PM »
It's curious how fast the objections to years and years of training fade away when one desperately requires a heart surgeon...

It's heart-wrenching sometimes to realize that these are often the same people who rely upon faith healing rather than obtain medical attention for their dependents.  And the same ones who will happily duct-tape an old broken microwave oven together and defeat the failsafe.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2012, 01:10:39 PM »
It's curious how fast the objections to years and years of training fade away when one desperately requires a heart surgeon...

It's heart-wrenching sometimes to realize that these are often the same people who rely upon faith healing rather than obtain medical attention for their dependents.  And the same ones who will happily duct-tape an old broken microwave oven together and defeat the failsafe.

Even worse the Jehovah's Witnesses that deny their children life-saving blood transfusions. Some would call it making the ultimate sacrifice, I would call it manslaughter.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline gillianren

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Re: TOO MUCH EDUCATION
« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2012, 01:36:22 PM »
My answer tends to be, "How do you know that penicillin isn't the answer to your prayers?"
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates