Author Topic: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.  (Read 669053 times)

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #300 on: August 28, 2015, 02:32:33 AM »
Here's two more examples of Lunar Orbiter photos released before Apollo 8.

I have an A2 size copy of that Copernicus image, and one taken from above - it's amazing. It's mounted on a board and was part of a set sold to Universities. It was being thrown away!

Offline raven

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #301 on: August 28, 2015, 02:37:43 AM »
Here's two more examples of Lunar Orbiter photos released before Apollo 8.

I have an A2 size copy of that Copernicus image, and one taken from above - it's amazing. It's mounted on a board and was part of a set sold to Universities. It was being thrown away!
Wow! I'm glad you got it, but wow!

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #302 on: August 28, 2015, 03:22:30 AM »
Wait a minute. What makes you think he's in vacuum. He might be in a vacuum chamber but how can you tell he's in a vacuum?

And there we have it.

So, Neil, a simple question. How would you, given a video of a vacuum chamber test, verify that a) there was a vacuum and b) that the sublimator was working? It seems clear you'd just handwave the evidence away based on your inability to do either of those things.

However, we don't need video of a vacuum chamber test to see a spacesuit working in a vacuum. Fortunately the film and TV of, for example, the Apollo lunar surface activities, is replete with evidence of a vacuum, from mylar foil being tossed around in ways impossible in air, through ziploc bags being scrunched up while sealed without puffing out in the irritating way that anyone who has tried to roll one up on Earth is familiar with, to the behaviour of the dust. There we have vidual records of a spacesuit functioning in a vacuum.

But of course you have already said that it was 'probably' faked, so tell us why we shold take anything you say seriously when you're so eager to dismiss any and all evidence presented to you except the one thing you know you will never get.

Quote
I still have trouble believing a high vacuum could be attained with a sublimator leaking water vapor into the chamber.

What, you can't imagine how a pump powerful enough to evacuate a room that size could possibly cope with a small amount of water vapour being emitted from a spacesuit inside it? How much water vapour would have to be emitted from a sublimator unit into a room that size to make a significant difference to the ambient pressure within? Surely you can do that bit of mathematics?
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Offline sts60

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #303 on: August 28, 2015, 03:24:26 AM »
...Once low earth vacuum was reached the sublimator could be turned on but that would probably result in an immediate loss of vacuum. I doubt this test can be done in a vacuum chamber on Earth...

No one cares about your ignorant opinion, since you not only have not done any of the work to test your claims and assertions such as the above, you refuse to even acknowledge it when other people do it for you and rub your nose in it.

I will reiterate an earlier assessment: I pointed out here and here, and many others have repeatedly shown as well, that your characterization of an "anomaly" is founded upon nothing more than your personal say-so.  You are manifestly unfamiliar with the record, you keep denying the existence of items showed to you, you keep trying to say that everyone else is as much in the dark as you, and you fountain out wild claims of coverups spanning half a century of international space operations with no basis whatsoever.  Yet you insist that a special demonstration be arranged for you on the basis of your ignorant and frankly irrational opinions.  You are just one of many hoax believers who attempt this silly and self-important charade. 

Not that you've answered, or even addressed, my previous questions, but - You accuse others here of being blind followers, but they've been busily digging up information and supplying context for you, and your response is to stick your fingers in your ears and shut your eyes to avoid having to reconsider your position.  You've assiduously avoided learning anything at all.  Why are you going to such lengths to remain clueless in the service of clinging to your "hoax" belief?  Is it a religious thing?  Are you just angry that the U.S. accomplished such a feat?   Or what?  Are you simply afraid that we'll laugh at you if you admit a mistake?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 03:50:10 AM by sts60 »

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #304 on: August 28, 2015, 03:50:29 AM »
Of course it is beyond Neil's ken that just maybe the astronaut wasn't standing in the vacuum chamber while it was being pumped down....
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Offline dwight

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #305 on: August 28, 2015, 04:12:52 AM »
Who here remembers when the hoax brigade actually cared about their arguments and didnt use things that could be easily proved false?
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Offline sts60

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #306 on: August 28, 2015, 04:25:41 AM »
There have been very few hoax claims that could not easily be proven false.

But the current poster's level of denial is right up there with Alan W, in terms of simply refusing to admit the existence of data even after it has been handed to him.

Offline Al Johnston

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #307 on: August 28, 2015, 04:50:10 AM »
Quote
Taguba and Fallon are recommended due to their gravitas and exemplary integrity at a time when it's apparent that it's extremely rare. 

No - you picked them because you think they share your values and because they have been critical of aspects of US foreign policy that you also criticise. Don't insult our intelligence by claiming you believe them to be neutral.

As men of integrity, there's no particular reason to suppose they would want even the slightest association with this creep.
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So I did.
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Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #308 on: August 28, 2015, 05:30:20 AM »
Some quick, back-of-the-envelope calculations, just for fun.

The vacuum chamber described, which I assume to be cylindrical, has a volume of about 11,300 cubic metres.

At standard temperature and pressure that volume of air has a mass of about 13,500kg

The Apollo PLSS carried 3.9kg of water for cooling

So, even if we assume that every last bit of cooling water was sublimed (which it wasn't as some of it was in a closed loop), if a vacuum pump can successfully evacuate the vast majority of 13,500kg of air from that chamber, would an additional 3.9kg of water vapour really a) pose a challenge for the pump, or b) make so much difference to the pressure in the chamber once it has been evacuated to render the cooling sublimator unable to function?
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Offline raven

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #309 on: August 28, 2015, 06:05:06 AM »
To keep things on the up and up, I realize now I linked to the same page twice on my earlier 'Lunar Orbiter pics from before 1968' post. Here is the second example I found, also from LIFE. Here's some more, this time from Popular Science.

Offline Peter B

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #310 on: August 28, 2015, 07:01:48 AM »
Who here remembers when the hoax brigade actually cared about their arguments and didnt use things that could be easily proved false?

Not me.

Thinking back ten years or so to when Dave Cosnette was active, his arguments were just as risible. Same for Margamatix a couple of years later...

I suspect JayUtah would say the same for Bennett and Percy back in the day.
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Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #311 on: August 28, 2015, 07:06:57 AM »
So, even if we assume that every last bit of cooling water was sublimed (which it wasn't as some of it was in a closed loop), if a vacuum pump can successfully evacuate the vast majority of 13,500kg of air from that chamber, would an additional 3.9kg of water vapour really a) pose a challenge for the pump, or b) make so much difference to the pressure in the chamber once it has been evacuated to render the cooling sublimator unable to function?

It's even worse for Neil. Having worked with UHV systems, water has a very nasty habit of sticking to the walls of vacuum systems. It's a real pain to remove from UHV systems, especially when trying to maintain the integrity of metal surface samples that one has spent hours polishing and then running through IBA cycles. The vacuum chambers pertinent to this discussion operate at pressures above UHV, I would be happy to bet a good sum of money that a proportion of the water would stick to the sides and offer less of a challenge to the pumps. Vacuum physics is not trivial, and I don't suppose Neil understands surface outgassing and the limitations it has on such systems. 3.9 kg of water is in the noise - especially when it is not suddenly dumped as a pool of water in the middle of the chamber floor.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 08:44:54 AM by Luke Pemberton »
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Offline Trebor

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #312 on: August 28, 2015, 07:31:44 AM »
I still have trouble believing a high vacuum could be attained with a sublimator leaking water vapor into the chamber.

Here you go, a very simple demonstration showing the basic principle.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOYgdQp4euc
Looks like an ideal way to remove heat when in a vacuum environment to me.

Offline RAF

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #313 on: August 28, 2015, 07:50:36 AM »
No, I said he reneged on a promise. Liar is your word. Again, please behave.

So you're calling him a liar, but you don't want anyone else to think you are calling him a liar??




Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #314 on: August 28, 2015, 08:02:55 AM »
To keep things on the up and up, I realize now I linked to the same page twice on my earlier 'Lunar Orbiter pics from before 1968' post. Here is the second example I found, also from LIFE. Here's some more, this time from Popular Science.

On a similar note, just in case Mr Baker cares to dispute the public availability of Apollo 8 imagery of Earth, I have an original Apollo 8 NASA photography report with all the images in it, and also an original ESSA meteorological data catalog covering the Apollo 8 mission. Both were available to anyone with the money to buy them, and both my copies are ex-libris, where any member of the public could borrow them.

Not to mention countless images of Earth taken by Apollo 8 published in newspapers and magazines at the time.