Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.

[Luke Pemberton]

We discussed the PLSS and Ralph Rene's calculations in a previous thread following Jarrah's milk in the trolley rubbish. I'm fairly sure that Jay or ka9q made a comment that the astronauts reported the PLSS actually made them too cold at times,(or was that the LM cooling system)?

[JayUtah]

...the astronauts reported the PLSS actually made them too cold at times,(or was that the LM cooling system)?

It was the PLSS.

[Luke Pemberton]

It was the PLSS.

Thought so. So anecdotal evidence that the PLSS transferred heat from the astronauts' bodies and rejected it to space, yet this testimony will inevitably be insufficient for Neil.

[bknight]

Sorry, but 9/11 is off-topic in this thread. Furthermore, it has nothing to do with the Apollo program.

Please stay on topic.

Indeed and if Neil wishes to start a thread in other conspiracy concerning the alleged 9-11 conspiracy he should do so.
From his lack of presenting facts, understanding material presented and lack off research, I suspect he would do no better in that attempt.
But please, Neil, stick to the topic and start a new thread if it pleases you.

[bknight]

...the astronauts reported the PLSS actually made them too cold at times,(or was that the LM cooling system)?

It was the PLSS.

With the longer Lunar stays the flow was increased to cool the ever increasing Sun angle also.

[Neil Baker]

Where did you get the crackpot notion that astronauts do not don their suits until in orbit?

Earlier, someone presented a test description from the early seventies that the sublimators were tested in a vacuum chamber while an astronaut wearing a spacesuit ran on  a treadmill outside of the vacuum chamber.
I never said they didn't don their suits until orbit.
The gathered information indicates that astronauts never enter vacuum on Earth prior to entering the vacuum of orbit.
I claim it's ridiculous while the majority here contend that it would be immoral for an astronaut to do on Earth what they're scheduled to do in orbit.

Is it like a Diver scheduled to perform a deep dive but all he's allowed to do prior is don his scuba tank, wearing mask, snorkel and fins while posing in front of the pool because it would be immoral for him to dive to the bottom of the deep end?

A test plan? A test procedure? A test description? A test video? A test photo? In addition to the absurdity of there not being any video or photos of spacesuit in vacuum tests for the past 50 years, it's just as absurd that nothing updated about the written test documentation seems to have been updated for the 21st century.

[Luke Pemberton]

Indeed and if Neil wishes to start a thread in other conspiracy concerning the alleged 9-11 conspiracy he should do so.
From his lack of presenting facts, understanding material presented and lack off research, I suspect he would do no better in that attempt.

I personally think 9-11 should be treated with the same contempt as Holocaust revision, and banned from the forum. JFK and Apollo Hoax conspiracy are one thing, but 9-11 and revisionism show utter contempt for those that died. I'm not just referring to the 3000 people killed on 9-11, but those that were caught up in the two wars that followed (both service personnel and the innocent victims of Iraq and Afghanistan).

[Apollo 957]

I think the major problem we're having in this country is the inability of the majority of its Citizens to confront the possibility that the government is sensationally corrupt to the point of deceiving them about

Really? That's YOUR country's 'major problem'? (Note - it's not THIS country, it's just A country, as far as the rest of us are concerned....)

Not the drought in California? The lack of free healthcare for your citizens? The rampant gun crime? etc etc

[JayUtah]

...the majority here contend that it would be immoral for an astronaut to do on Earth what they're scheduled to do in orbit.

No one has made that claim.  Since I wrote a lengthy clarification just this morning, I have to conclude you're either ignoring your critics' posts or deliberately misrepresenting them.  Which is it?

In addition to the absurdity of there not being any video or photos of spacesuit in vacuum tests for the past 50 years, it's just as absurd that nothing updated about the written test documentation seems to have been updated for the 21st century.

Your opinion of what is absurd is irrelevant.  You are not an expert.  Your opinion of what is or isn't available has been determined conclusively to be a combination of delusional expectations and your laziness/incompetence.

[bknight]

I personally think 9-11 should be treated with the same contempt as Holocaust revision, and banned from the forum. JFK and Apollo Hoax conspiracy are one thing, but 9-11 and revisionism show utter contempt for those that died. I'm not just referring to the 3000 people killed on 9-11, but those that were caught up in the two wars that followed (both service personnel and the innocent victims of Iraq and Afghanistan).

At what point is the death to be treated with contempt?   One death, 10,000 or 12,000,000? The all have the similar if not quantitate results.

[Abaddon]

Where did you get the crackpot notion that astronauts do not don their suits until in orbit?

Earlier, someone presented a test description from the early seventies that the sublimators were tested in a vacuum chamber while an astronaut wearing a spacesuit ran on  a treadmill outside of the vacuum chamber.
I never said they didn't don their suits until orbit.
The gathered information indicates that astronauts never enter vacuum on Earth prior to entering the vacuum of orbit.
I claim it's ridiculous while the majority here contend that it would be immoral for an astronaut to do on Earth what they're scheduled to do in orbit.

Is it like a Diver scheduled to perform a deep dive but all he's allowed to do prior is don his scuba tank, wearing mask, snorkel and fins while posing in front of the pool because it would be immoral for him to dive to the bottom of the deep end?

A test plan? A test procedure? A test description? A test video? A test photo? In addition to the absurdity of there not being any video or photos of spacesuit in vacuum tests for the past 50 years, it's just as absurd that nothing updated about the written test documentation seems to have been updated for the 21st century.

Why does any suit test require a living human to be inside the suit? What would it add to the test?

What new data would photos or videos add? Why should such photos and videos be posted to the internet? To what end and purpose?

Since such photos and videos would show NOTHING AT ALL visible, why would you suddenly be convinced of Apollo?

Are car crash tests invalid since no live humans are used in them?

[gillianren]

Seriously, Neil, do you not get that showing one thing to be fake only ever shows that the one thing is fake?  It doesn't matter if it's the PLSS relative to the whole of Apollo or Apollo relative to 9/11.  In order to show the entire record to be fake, you have to go through every piece of evidence.  Let's for a moment posit that, okay, the PLSS was fake.  What does that prove?  I can think of a couple of possibilities without even trying.

1.  The astronauts were in fact cooled with technology that is for some reason classified.
2.  The astronauts weren't cooled.  (We know from anecdotal evidence that this isn't true, and I believe it medically can't be true, but never mind.)

So okay.  You want to move on and prove that all of Apollo was faked?  You must start proving that other aspects were faked.  Because the PLSS being fake doesn't do anything to wave away the literally tons of other evidence.

But sure, why not?  Let's say you are the first person ever with a coherent story that explains literally all of the evidence.  I can't even come up with an imaginary explanation that handles it, but whatever.  You somehow do.  You know what?  That still proves nothing about 9/11!  No, seriously.  You have to start the process over with every single piece of evidence there.  Every piece of evidence stands on its own.  The late Vincent Bugliosi used to say that evidence was not a chain.  It was a rope.  You didn't destroy it by destroying a single piece, because all the rest of it was still binding.

[ka9q]

At what point is the death to be treated with contempt?   One death, 10,000 or 12,000,000? The all have the similar if not quantitate results.

Contempt is deserved for any claim that exploits (or denies) human suffering with a clear disregard for the facts and for cynical political or ideological purposes. In this way, claiming the Holocaust was fake is essentially the same as claiming 9/11 was an inside job, which is essentially the same as claiming the Apollo 1 fire was intentional murder (see, there's an Apollo connection).

[mako88sb]

I thought it might be better to ease them into a confrontation with their self-delusion by exposing something less difficult, like the possible Apollo moon landing hoax.

Have you ever tried to figure out that it might of been impossible to fake the landings? I think for me, the best evidence that they happened is this fact. Apollo 12 landed close enough to Surveyor 3 that they were able to visit it and collect some of it's parts to assess how the harsh environment had affected it over the 2 years it had been there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveyor_3

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/20jun_apollorelic/

Here's a pdf of the report detailing what they found:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19720019081.pdf

Now of course you can claim that it's all staged to add more realism but it's a risky thing to work into a hoax don't you think? If a future rover or manned mission from another country went to visit the Surveyor 3 site and found nothing in it's vicinity and that it still had it's camera and scoop, the jig would be up. Nobody would ever recommend such a thing being worked into a hoax because the future ramifications are pretty obvious.

[bknight]

Contempt is deserved for any claim that exploits (or denies) human suffering with a clear disregard for the facts and for cynical political or ideological purposes. In this way, claiming the Holocaust was fake is essentially the same as claiming 9/11 was an inside job, which is essentially the same as claiming the Apollo 1 fire was intentional murder (see, there's an Apollo connection).

I agree with both you and Luke, and was trying to indicate that by that measure none of the conspiracies that would include death would/should not be started.