Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.

[smartcooky]

My dad had a selsyn synchro motor system to drive his 20m band cubical quad.

Sure it was a Selsyn? They were generally rather low torque, much too low to drive a large HF antenna.

Antenna rotors are common, and virtually all use AC (some use DC) motors to drive gears that turn the antenna. A potentiometer detects mast angle, and this is sent back to the control box where it drives the indicator and stops rotation when it reaches the desired spot.

Well it was a long time ago, I was about 10 years old (I am 60 next month), however, I remember Dad calling it a "selsyn motor".

It also had a separate dial that sat on top of his HRO right next to the speaker (in fact it was housed in an identical box to the speaker, a stippled black finish). It showed where the antenna was actually pointing; he would turn the knob (sometimes he would let me turn it) until the pointer pointed to, say, 270°. You could hear the humming of the motor and the dial would track around gradually until it too pointed to 270°. Perhaps I misunderstood and the dial arrangement was a selsyn?

[ka9q]

Although I've never seen it done that way, yes, it's quite possible that a selsyn was used to display the position of the rotator on the control box. This is just how a lot of Navy warships used them to display gun positions at remote locations.

But the rotator itself was almost certainly driven by a conventional motor. A very popular design uses a two (rather than three) phase AC induction motor with a capacitor between the hot sides of the two windings. You apply AC power to one winding or the other and the motor turns in the corresponding direction.

Nearly all rotators today use a potentiometer to produce a DC voltage proportional to the position, and this voltage is sent back down to the control box where it is displayed on an analog or digital meter.

As a kid in the 1960s we had a TV rotator that pulsed a switch every N degrees that would energize an electromagnet in the control box and step an indicator needle around the circle. It kept getting out of sync, so you'd have to run the rotator into one stop and then push a button on the control box until it also read at the stop. I've never seen it anywhere else.

[Neil Baker]

I found this book published in 1993 that mentions spacesuit ice sublimators.
https://books.google.com/books?id=fb4QAQAAMAAJ&q=spacesuit+ice+sublimator&dq=spacesuit+ice+sublimator&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBDgKahUKEwjty7GimNLHAhXVKYgKHZUTC2k

I searched hard for a second Internet photo of a spacesuit ice sublimator with no success but in 2007 Harold McCann, coauthor of U.S. Spacesuits

http://www.amazon.com/Spacesuits-Springer-Praxis-Books-Exploration/dp/144199565X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1440988637&sr=8-1&keywords=u.S.+spacesuits

sent me two additional photos of ice sublimators from his private collection so I know they exist even though they weren't on the Internet.

And except for that one 1966 video of a spacesuit without sublimator failing with a near-fatality, I can't find any others. I've read the comments and I agree that there would be little to see  if a vacuum chamber were filmed and little could be proven by it but considering the crucial nature of those tests and the unique nature of the heat transfer device, I'm surprised more public attention wasn't focused on the sublimators.

Reading many of the links provided, it was surprising to learn that none of the test reports indicated that an astronaut was in the vacuum chamber at the same time the sublimator was being tested. They would place the sublimator in a vacuum chamber with a suited astronaut outside on a treadmill. The Rice University tests used an electric heater to supply the heat load for the sublimator in a vacuum chamber. I didn't understand the units he used to describe vacuum chamber pressure.

Anyway, although I now know much more about the sublimators, I still have doubts that astronauts have performed EVAs in the vacuum of space. Testimony of Independent witnesses observing a spacesuit with sublimator operating in a high vacuum chamber on Earth duplicating environmental conditions of orbit is not, in my opinion, an unreasonable request.
If NASA is using those spacesuit for EVAs as they allege then they've been regularly testing them for more than 50 years as they also allege. It should cost nothing extra and pose little inconvenience to allow independent observers. Plus it would add validation to NASA's Citizen supported activity.

[JayUtah]

Anyway, although I now know much more about the sublimators, I still have doubts that astronauts have performed EVAs in the vacuum of space.

Of course you do.  You had those doubts before you were told how they worked.  And you still have that doubt, because you explained why you need that doubt in order to satisfy your personal pet projects in other areas.  As such, it will never go away despite that the available information satisfies everyone except you, including those who work in the field.  As was amply shown, your willy-nilly requests for others to provide information, accompanied by goalposts that move so fast they create sonic booms, cannot possibly be calculated to form part of any serious study.

Since you've conceded that information regarding sublimators existed prior to 2007, please retract your claim that you instigated recent publication.  And please apologize to your critics for insinuating that you had made a thorough enough search prior to the claim, which you have now admitted indirectly was not true.

Testimony of Independent witnesses observing a spacesuit with sublimator operating in a high vacuum chamber on Earth duplicating environmental conditions of orbit is not, in my opinion, an unreasonable request.

It is, for the reasons already specified and which you stubbornly refuse to address.  You are the only one who doubts they work.  And frankly, you're just not that important.

[Trebor]

I still have doubts that astronauts have performed EVAs in the vacuum of space.

Why exactly?
I don't think you have ever given an actual reason why the sublimation of water in a vacuum would not be a suitable way to remove heat.

[nomuse]

Ah, yes. We've tested that hammers work. We've tested that nails work. But there is no possible way of telling if you could hammer a nail. Because something mysterious might happen when you put together an astronaut AND radiant heat AND "high" vacuum AND a sublimator AND...I dunno, a Mickey Mouse Wristwatch, because if you are going to assume completely unpredictable interactions between individually well-behaved elements, you can't rule any addition to the system out.

[bknight]

Reading many of the links provided, it was surprising to learn that none of the test reports indicated that an astronaut was in the vacuum chamber at the same time the sublimator was being tested. They would place the sublimator in a vacuum chamber with a suited astronaut outside on a treadmill. The Rice University tests used an electric heater to supply the heat load for the sublimator in a vacuum chamber. I didn't understand the units he used to describe vacuum chamber pressure.

Why is this surprising?  The sublimators in the vacuum chamber worked as expected cooling the individual on the tread mill.  Only your narrow perspective of how a test should be conducted is in question by all of us.

Anyway, although I now know much more about the sublimators, I still have doubts that astronauts have performed EVAs in the vacuum of space. Testimony of Independent witnesses observing a spacesuit with sublimator operating in a high vacuum chamber on Earth duplicating environmental conditions of orbit is not, in my opinion, an unreasonable request.

It is when you are the only one asking for the test, when it has been made abundantly clear they work as advertised in a vacuum.  You are holed up in your opinion of yourself and refuse to learn what has been presented.

If NASA is using those spacesuit for EVAs as they allege then they've been regularly testing them for more than 50 years as they also allege. It should cost nothing extra and pose little inconvenience to allow independent observers. Plus it would add validation to NASA's Citizen supported activity.

The only validation is in your mind, the rest of the world accepts that they work, and even has imagery of them working at various locations.  These locations you also refuse to acknowledge even though one of them you can see with the naked eye.

[Neil Baker]

Jay--Well, the fact remains that the photo of the ice sublimator didn't appear in 2007 when I searched. Harold McCann looked also and couldn't find the photo. Also, I was able to make the claim that no photo existed on the Internet until only recently. I don't know exactly when it appeared. It may very well have been there buried deep and we didn't use the correct description to bring it up but it didn't come up when "spacesuit ice sublimator" was typed in the Google search engine.

As for the no textbook mentioning ice sublimators, I'm not sure the Chinese publication in 2010 was not instigated by my dispute regarding the subject of ice sublimators since I was disputing them in 2007 in many places and nobody presented me with any evidence to the contrary.  The Chinese performed a spacewalk in suits that I suspect they say they cooled with sublimators and so might have thought they needed to cover that base.  But still, 1993 is the earliest I can find and that's odd too since they've allegedly been using them since at least 1969. But it just might be that I haven't located the book yet. It might be there from 1968. I'll keep searching.

But even you should confess that it is strange. Despite being one of the most interesting heat transfer devices, so little visual information is given regarding them. Except for the one photo and some different line drawings, there's nothing. Yes, video of the tests might not show much but they could have shown the experiment setups with treadmill and suited subject outside the vacuum chamber. Roughing pumps, turbo pumps, gauges. It is an interesting, potentially dangerous and very crucial aspect of the testing program and so, if only from a PR perspective, it is expected that NASA would cover it. If not then, then now when they've finally been challenged to do so.

And still, having read what I've read, I'm still a bit confused. None of the test reports indicate that any human in a spacesuit ever entered a vacuum chamber that was pumped down to high vacuum conditions. Something is very wrong with the picture and I'm wondering if your dedicated enthusiasm for Apollo has blinded you to the possibility that this area of the technology was not adequately documented to avoid suspicion.

Trebor--I have no reason why it wouldn't be a suitable way to remove heat. It sounds cool (no pun intended). I was fascinated when I first learned about it but like I described in my first post, it was when I went to learn more and found so little of what I expected to find that I started to doubt.

[Trebor]

I still have doubts that astronauts have performed EVAs in the vacuum of space.

Why exactly?

Trebor--I have no reason why it wouldn't be a suitable way to remove heat.

So what is the problem exactly?

[Neil Baker]

bknight--would you go into space to perform an EVA without having donned that suit and sublimator and tested them in a high vacuum chamber on Earth first? Is my perspective really that narrow? I think it should represent common sense of any reasonably responsible astronaut that the answer is no.

It is very puzzling to me why it's only me, especially among this very smart crowd, that is asking for the test. I have learned what is presented and it's not clear at all that they work as advertised.

I've heard the Latin word for truth is veritas. It's where we get the word verify. In a way, from a semantics perspective, the Scientific Method is older than we ever thought although Francis Bacon is supposed to have formalized the procedure.

[Neil Baker]

So what is the problem exactly?

When I went to find more information about them in 2007, I couldn't find a photograph, or a video or a citation in any academic-level book.  A single photo has since appeared and I have today identified a book from 1993 that mentions them but still it's far less than what I expected considering that spacesuit ice sublimators are one of the most exotic heat transfer devices ever developed. I can't understand why they aren't more appreciated. If I had a freshman thermo class, the question I'd ask them in the course is, how would you cool a spacesuit in the vacuum of space if you had nothing to conduct to, nothing to convect to and no radiator?

[JayUtah]

Jay--Well, the fact remains...

Not a fact.  You've already pled incompetent at net searches, so we're done with that point.

As for the no textbook...

Weasel words.  You said no textbook mentioned it.  You were wrong, but you won't admit it.  This means you're arguing in bad faith.

But even you should confess that it is strange.

No, I should not.  I was writing about sublimators in 2002.  Your attempt to trump up a controversy about it years later convinces no one.

And still, having read what I've read, I'm still a bit confused. None of the test reports indicate that any human in a spacesuit...

Shifting goalposts.  And you probably don't realize that this latest shift pretty much exposes you as entirely ignorant of human test subject protocols and engineering test protocols.  Give it up, Baker.  You're a complete ignoramus on this subject, and that -- not some farfetched conspiracy -- is why no one pays attention to you.

your dedicated enthusiasm for Apollo has blinded...

Nice try, Baker.  This is an emotional argument for you, not me.

...this area of the technology was not adequately documented to avoid suspicion.

Let me repeat that you're talking about my profession, about which you demonstrate absolutely no correct knowledge.  Maybe your explicitly stated zeal to use NASA and Apollo as proxies for your 9/11 obsession -- which has reached criminal proportions -- has blinded you to the fairly obvious fact that you're the only one who claims nickel porous plate sublimators can't work and weren't adequately tested.

..it was when I went to learn more and found so little of what I expected to find that I started to doubt.

But you didn't actually go, as we've determined and as you've lately, indirectly, admitted.  And your expectations are laughably absurd.

[Trebor]

bknight--would you go into space to perform an EVA without having donned that suit and sublimator and tested them in a high vacuum chamber on Earth first?

I see no reason why I would not, because the space suits have been tested many, many times in orbit by several countries. What exactly do you think the problem is here?

[Abaddon]

And except for that one 1966 video of a spacesuit without sublimator failing with a near-fatality, I can't find any others. I've read the comments and I agree that there would be little to see  if a vacuum chamber were filmed and little could be proven by it but considering the crucial nature of those tests and the unique nature of the heat transfer device, I'm surprised more public attention wasn't focused on the sublimators.

More Orlan vacuum chamber testing

Early US pressure suit vacuum chamber testing

You really are incredibly incompetent at research, aren't you?

[JayUtah]

When I went to find more information about them in 2007, I couldn't find a photograph, or a video or a citation in any academic-level book.

We've already demonstrated how incompetent you are at the relevant research.  That, not some conspiracy, is why you were "unable" to find relevant information.  That, and the stated need to find NASA in some sort of intellectual default so that you could leverage that for your 9/11 fantasy.

I can't understand why they aren't more appreciated.

They are.  Every manned spacefaring country uses them.  Your ignorance does not create a legitimate controversy.