Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.

[JayUtah]

To finish the thought, astronauts do train extensively for space walks, and some of the training can be dangerous. Just like it was worthwhile to train firefighters in a potentially dangerous way to improve the chances that they would be successful in a life-threatening emergency.

Exactly.  The point of training is to impart experience and skill to the person being trained.  If the person is being trained to do a potentially hazardous thing, there is generally a tradeoff between the fidelity of the training and its safety.  There is simply no other way to acquire practical knowledge than to put the human into a realistic situation that may at times transcend the capability of simulation.  You train firefighters by having them put out fires in buildings erected solely for that purpose.  And yes, it is dangerous to expose a firefighter trainee to the hazards of a real fire.  You mitigate that risk by surrounding him with highly experienced firefighters, escalating the hazards across training in a controlled fashion, and having abort facilities such as fire-suppression systems that work independently of his efforts.  But there simply is no other way for the trainee to learn how to fight fires.

But you don't test a new respirator system by putting it on a trainee and sending him into a fire.  You don't test new nozzle designs by making a fireman stand and fight a real fire with it.  Respirators and nozzles are verified in ways that don't expose a human to danger in case of test failure.  Similarly when NASA says they test sublimators, they don't expose a human to risk if the sublimator fails in testing.  They don't need to, and yes, to risk a human unnecessarily for such a test would indeed be immoral.

[Luke Pemberton]

In Neil's world, the infantry would undergo FIBUA training using fragmentation grenades and live round ammunition and cavalry training would use HESH and sabot rounds. 

[bknight]

In Neil's world, the infantry would undergo FIBUA training using fragmentation grenades and live round ammunition and cavalry training would use HESH and sabot rounds. 

Crawling through mud beneath barb wired with live fire above was a close simulation.

[LunarOrbit]

And then we'd have an Independent Holocaust Investigation.

Wow. Just. Wow.

It's worse than NASA.
No documented gas chambers.
Nowhere near enough ovens.
Lice insecticide, Zyklon B, still manufactured as Uragan D2 with the charges that it was used as an agent of mass murder scoffed at by its Czech Republic manufacturers.
Worst, outrageous thought crime laws in 14 nations prohibiting the questioning or investigation of the holocaust.
GOD bless America!
An International group of forensic experts could make quick work of this hoax if they were allowed in.
I recommend this website to deprogram yourself from the holocaust garbage they fed you in public school.
http:// [LINK REMOVED] /

This is off topic and not welcome in my forum. Start your own forum if you want to discuss things like that. This is your only warning.

[LunarOrbit]

And then we'd have an Independent Holocaust Investigation.

My contempt just turned to loathing and disgust. If I posted what I think about you and your ilk I would be banned from the forum.

I'll defend a Apollo hoax believer if I believe they are being treated unfairly... but I won't defend a holocaust denying scumbag. They're fair game.

[bknight]

And then we'd have an Independent Holocaust Investigation.

My contempt just turned to loathing and disgust. If I posted what I think about you and your ilk I would be banned from the forum.

I'll defend a Apollo hoax believer if I believe they are being treated unfairly... but I won't defend a holocaust denying scumbag. They're fair game.

His true colors became vivid this afternoon.

[DD Brock]

And then we'd have an Independent Holocaust Investigation.

My contempt just turned to loathing and disgust. If I posted what I think about you and your ilk I would be banned from the forum.

I'll defend a Apollo hoax believer if I believe they are being treated unfairly... but I won't defend a holocaust denying scumbag. They're fair game.

I could not possibly agree more. Holocaust deniers are the amongst the worst sort of scum.

[nomuse]

The last thing I read on this site last night was someone telling me that testing a spacesuit with an astronaut in it was immoral.

When I was in the Navy I had to attend firefighting school three times where they would make us don an oxygen breathing apparatus (OBA) and enter a steel compartment on land modeled after the compartment of a ship that was engulfed in flames with smoke pouring out of it to put out the fire. It was seriously dangerous. People would sometimes get hurt. It was scary. But it was a tremendous confidence booster. We had fire drills twice a day on the carrier I was stationed aboard and we once had a bad fire in a paint locker that we had to extinguish. After the USS Forrestal fire, nobody could serve aboard ship without having gone through firefighting school. The entire crew, from the highest ranking officer to the lowest enlisted, consisted of trained firefighters that had experienced fighting fires in smoke-filled fire-engulged rooms while wearing an OBA.

In boot camp we had to enter a teargas-filled room wearing a gas mask and then take off the mask before rushing out of the room suffering the expected horrible symptoms.

So this situation where it appears due to alleged morality reasons that no spacesuit has been tested in a high vacuum chamber with a person in it just makes the alarms in my head go off even louder.  It's like saying it would be immoral to fight a fire in a compartment on land because it's dangerous; let's wait until we have a fire on a ship to fight one.

I think it's common sense. If I'm going to the ISS to perform an EVA, I first don the spacesuit and enter the high vacuum chamber on Earth and pump down to 1e-6 torr. I probably want to do it many times. While I'm in there they shut off the sublimator to perform the recovery drill. They drill other stuff too, loss of electricity, loss of air, loss of spacesuit integrity. I'd probably want to go in with another astronaut to practice the buddy system of PLSS troubleshooting and emergency procedures. And while we're in there we want the whole thing video recorded for replay and post-test analysis.

There's nothing immoral about it. It's very moral. There's not a single NASA astrounaut that has trained for an EVA that shouldn't have some test video. It's absurd that it doesn't exist.

If somehow the witnessed test that I want was ordered, I doubt they'd find any volunteers to wear the suit inside while the chamber got pumped down to high vacuum. I'm still doubting. I lean even a bit more toward hoax.

The difference being, the soldier getting a nose full of CS is the one being tested, not the "gas." Try to make arbitrary changes to the training equipment without oversight and testing and see how they'd react to that idea.

[Peter B]

[SNIP]

If somehow the witnessed test that I want was ordered, I doubt they'd find any volunteers to wear the suit inside while the chamber got pumped down to high vacuum. I'm still doubting. I lean even a bit more toward hoax.

To repeat what I posted in Reply #535:

Neil Baker

I'd be grateful if you could answer the following questions:

1. Is personal validation the only way you verify facts? If not, who do you trust to give you reliable information about subjects you're personally unfamiliar with and how do you verify their reliability? What's to stop you from using this process with people testing PLSSs?

2. If NASA faked Apollo because the spacesuit sublimators didn't or couldn't work, don't you think the Soviets would have been smart enough to work this out? Or do you think they were in on the hoax? If so, why would they go along with something which provided a propaganda victory to the USA at the height of the Cold War?

[Peter B]

NASA has never publicly demonstrated before independent witnesses a spacesuit with ice sublimator cooling system in a high vacuum chamber on Earth duplicating environmental conditions of orbit.

Now it appears they've never tested a spacesuited astronaut while in a vacuum chamber at all except for that last documented test way back in 1966 when the suit failed causing a near fatality.

I'm puzzled more why they won't even show a video of an ice sublimator in a vacuum chamber with the astronaut outside running on the treadmill.

Our space program is currently a mythological faith-based thing. You insist upon it remaining so.

Once again reminding you of what I asked in Reply #535:

Neil Baker

I'd be grateful if you could answer the following questions:

1. Is personal validation the only way you verify facts? If not, who do you trust to give you reliable information about subjects you're personally unfamiliar with and how do you verify their reliability? What's to stop you from using this process with people testing PLSSs?

2. If NASA faked Apollo because the spacesuit sublimators didn't or couldn't work, don't you think the Soviets would have been smart enough to work this out? Or do you think they were in on the hoax? If so, why would they go along with something which provided a propaganda victory to the USA at the height of the Cold War?

[bknight]

Once again reminding you of what I asked in Reply #535:

Neil Baker

I'd be grateful if you could answer the following questions:

1. Is personal validation the only way you verify facts? If not, who do you trust to give you reliable information about subjects you're personally unfamiliar with and how do you verify their reliability? What's to stop you from using this process with people testing PLSSs?

2. If NASA faked Apollo because the spacesuit sublimators didn't or couldn't work, don't you think the Soviets would have been smart enough to work this out? Or do you think they were in on the hoax? If so, why would they go along with something which provided a propaganda victory to the USA at the height of the Cold War?

Anyone that would have knowledge of his irrational behavior and illogical thought processes would back away from working for/with him.

[Peter B]

[SNIP]

I think I got zero votes (except mine of course )and Arnold's vision won.  Cruz Bustamante came in second. Poor California.

This page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_gubernatorial_recall_election#Results) doesn't list you, and it includes people who got as few as 1 vote. So how reliable are you if you either (a) can't report the result accurately, or (b) couldn't even bring yourself to vote for you?

[Peter B]

Funnily enough, a week ago I had never even heard of a sublimator. Now I know a fair bit about them, and have a ton of sources I could easily pursue to learn more were I so inclined.

Funny? You think that's funny? It's not funny. It's the anomaly that could, if more of the engineers here would demonstrate courage, bring down the government of the First Republic of the United States.

So why didn't the Soviet Union manage it back at the time of Apollo? If proving now that Apollo was faked would bring down the Republic, what do you think would have happened if the USSR had proved it back in 1969, just a year after that tumultuous year of 1968?

[bknight]

It's worse than NASA.
No documented gas chambers.
Nowhere near enough ovens.
Lice insecticide, Zyklon B, still manufactured as Uragan D2 with the charges that it was used as an agent of mass murder scoffed at by its Czech Republic manufacturers.
Worst, outrageous thought crime laws in 14 nations prohibiting the questioning or investigation of the holocaust.
GOD bless America!
An International group of forensic experts could make quick work of this hoax if they were allowed in.
I recommend this website to deprogram yourself from the holocaust garbage they fed you in public school.
http:// [LINK REMOVED] /

Now that I've calmed down from the shock and awe of this and one other post.
This is precisely why Eisenhower ordered filming of the death camps and all associated mechanism, ordered townspeople to parade through them, just so history could not ever come up with a story line that this was all fabricated.

[VQ]

Crawling through mud beneath barb wired with live fire above was a close simulation.

But at least you weren't doing it to test the barbed wire.