Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.

[Abaddon]

Also, remedial maths. And ethics.

[bknight]

Also, remedial maths. And ethics. 

[dissolution] You want them to be knowable, public servants and have ethics?  Like that is going to happen.[/dissolution]

[gillianren]

More specifically, high school is the last four years of secondary education in the US.  (Usually.  Sometimes, it's the last three.)  When I was in high school, we were required to take a one-semester class called government in order to graduate.  It's been over twenty years since I took it, so I can't tell you exactly what I learned from that class versus all the stuff that I learned other places, but it's a lot of information about the structure of the US government and so forth.  Things like the so-called "balance of power," where each of our three main branches of government has abilities and restrictions assigned by the Constitution, and the case of Marbury v. Madison, which over two hundred years ago established the concept of "judicial review," which means that the Supreme Court has the authority to throw out laws as being unconstitutional.

[Abaddon]

More specifically, high school is the last four years of secondary education in the US.  (Usually.  Sometimes, it's the last three.)  When I was in high school, we were required to take a one-semester class called government in order to graduate.  It's been over twenty years since I took it, so I can't tell you exactly what I learned from that class versus all the stuff that I learned other places, but it's a lot of information about the structure of the US government and so forth.  Things like the so-called "balance of power," where each of our three main branches of government has abilities and restrictions assigned by the Constitution, and the case of Marbury v. Madison, which over two hundred years ago established the concept of "judicial review," which means that the Supreme Court has the authority to throw out laws as being unconstitutional.

I can beat you on time, since it's thirty years ago, but both here and in the UK that used to be called "Civics" and it was a fancy pants name for a doss class. It counted for nothing and had no exams or scores associated. Now that I have my own kids, it turns out that it has been renamed, as if that makes a difference, yet retains the same bovine content as it did when I was a kid. Sure, such humdrum things have an importance. Not to a teenager.

I know you are a relatively new mother and everything is pink and happy, but be warned, the time passes quickly and suddenly you will find yourself confronted with a poorly dressed teen saying "Your old, what the hell do you know about anything?" followed by "Don't answer me, you are judging me" all of which makes you pause and realise "Wait. My parents were right, I really was a dick as a teen".

Que sera sera.

[bknight]

More specifically, high school is the last four years of secondary education in the US.  (Usually.  Sometimes, it's the last three.)  When I was in high school, we were required to take a one-semester class called government in order to graduate.  It's been over twenty years since I took it, so I can't tell you exactly what I learned from that class versus all the stuff that I learned other places, but it's a lot of information about the structure of the US government and so forth.  Things like the so-called "balance of power," where each of our three main branches of government has abilities and restrictions assigned by the Constitution, and the case of Marbury v. Madison, which over two hundred years ago established the concept of "judicial review," which means that the Supreme Court has the authority to throw out laws as being unconstitutional.

I can beat you on time, since it's thirty years ago, but both here and in the UK that used to be called "Civics" and it was a fancy pants name for a doss class. It counted for nothing and had no exams or scores associated. Now that I have my own kids, it turns out that it has been renamed, as if that makes a difference, yet retains the same bovine content as it did when I was a kid. Sure, such humdrum things have an importance. Not to a teenager.

I know you are a relatively new mother and everything is pink and happy, but be warned, the time passes quickly and suddenly you will find yourself confronted with a poorly dressed teen saying "Your old, what the hell do you know about anything?" followed by "Don't answer me, you are judging me" all of which makes you pause and realise "Wait. My parents were right, I really was a dick as a teen".

Que sera sera.

See yours and raise twenty,  I didn't bring up the government role in civics, since that my/not be different than other countries.  Yes, our three branches pass laws(Congress) and funding, execute those laws(Executive), and rule on the legality versus what the Constitution (Judical) says/does not say.  The Judicial can over time change its collective mind on what the Constitution means.

[gillianren]

I can beat you on time, since it's thirty years ago, but both here and in the UK that used to be called "Civics" and it was a fancy pants name for a doss class. It counted for nothing and had no exams or scores associated. Now that I have my own kids, it turns out that it has been renamed, as if that makes a difference, yet retains the same bovine content as it did when I was a kid. Sure, such humdrum things have an importance. Not to a teenager.

They did to me when I was a teenager, and my older sister was so involved in the political process that she was a campaign volunteer for Dukakis when she was fourteen.  As I said, though, you couldn't graduate if you didn't take the class.  And pass.  Now, what was involved in passing varied from teacher to teacher.  I took it in summer school and had a pretty decent one, though he was weirdly reminiscent of Yoda.  The one who taught at my actual high school was lousy.  I had him for economics, which I didn't take in summer school, and can't even remember what we were graded on in his class.

I know you are a relatively new mother and everything is pink and happy, but be warned, the time passes quickly and suddenly you will find yourself confronted with a poorly dressed teen saying "Your old, what the hell do you know about anything?" followed by "Don't answer me, you are judging me" all of which makes you pause and realise "Wait. My parents were right, I really was a dick as a teen".

Well, first off, I've been a mother for almost eighteen years.  I gave her up for adoption, but it's an open adoption and I still have contact with her.  Second, trust me, not everything is "pink and happy."  I have a very bright and very headstrong two-year-old who does what he wants and basically ignores what I have to say unless it meets what he wants.  Third, I never once said that to anyone when I was a teenager.  The closest I ever got was scoffing (behind his back) at a priest whose advice about dealing with high school was to remind me that Jesus had been my age once.  Which, you know, is not helpful advice.

[Abaddon]

Ah. In this neck of the woods, the priests hold you down and scoff behind your back.

[Ishkabibble]

You obviously have never been in the South... Down here the "preachers" are just as likely to pick up a shotgun as they are to smack you in the head with a bible...

Both occurrences have been in the local news within the last year.

Just one of the many, many reasons I became an athiest years ago...

[JayUtah]

...here and in the UK that used to be called "Civics" and it was a fancy pants name for a doss class. It counted for nothing and had no exams or scores associated.

It was different where I grew up.  Civics was a serious class and was required for graduation.  Luckily it was taught by one of the popular teachers.  He has since retired, of course, but he still keeps in touch with me and many of his former students.  (I've reached the age where everything at my former school is now named after the faculty of my era -- the auditorium is named for my principal [read: headmaster] and they just named the football [read: American football] stadium for my coach.)  Of course I went on to take some political science classes at University of Michigan, so I may be blending where I learned what.

The bottom line is that so very few state and local legislators seem to understand such basic concepts as the separation of powers ordained by America's founders.  And I hear this also from some of the legislators of my state, who are sometimes guests in my home.  (I'm good friends with their campaign managers.)  What they call the activity of government I call politics.

[bknight]

...The bottom line is that so very few state and local legislators seem to understand such basic concepts as the separation of powers ordained by America's founders.  And I hear this also from some of the legislators of my state, who are sometimes guests in my home.  (I'm good friends with their campaign managers.)  What they call the activity of government I call politics.

A good example is passing laws that they(Congressmen) are exempt.

[smartcooky]

I would like to take this opportunity to share something with other forum members

A freind of mine, Clive, is an amateur astronomer. a physics and cosmology buff, and all-around very smart man. He mentors school kids in science classes. Clive told me about this student, a 14 year old girl, who made an unusual entry in this year's Cawthron Institute Science Fair.

I have decided to post it here, since we have in this thread a claim from an HB that the ISS is a balloon being flown in the atmosphere. Following is a reprint (with the student and her mum's permission) of her presentation, which was called - SPEEDY SATELLITES.

Question

How many times does the International Space Station orbit the earth in one day?

Hypothesis

I think that the space station will go around the earth 7 or 8 times a day because it seemed to be traveling extremely fast when I saw it.

Method

To time the passes of the space station I needed to set up a datum line that could be used to watch when it passed.
To do this I have found a simple method using a bike wheel on a pole and a stop watch.

Step 1 - I removed the front wheel from a bike and remove the tyre.

Step 2 - I constructed a frame to attach the wheel to that can be adjusted to different vertical and horizontal angles, and attached the wheel to it.

Step 3 - I attached the frame to the top of a solid vertical pole that had a clear view to the sky.

Step 4 - I aligned the axle so that it points to the celestial South Pole. The rim of the wheel will now be closely aligned with the earth’s celestial equator. The space station will pass over this line. The celestial South Pole can be found by extending the vertical line of the Southern Cross and intersecting it with a line perpendicular from the midpoint between the Pointers. This is the position of which all of the stars appear to revolve around in the night sky.

Step 5 - By looking through the plane created by the bike wheel you are able to observe when the space station passes this plane, this can be used to accurately time when the space station passes the same projected plane in the sky.

Step 6 - With my mobile phone logged in to the international atomic clock, I recorded the time that the space station passed through the plane created by the bike wheel. I recorded this time in my log book.

Step 7 - I repeated steps 5 and 6 several times over a number of nights.

Step 8 - I can now use the times to calculate the number of passes between each reading, the average orbit period and calculate the number of orbits in a day.

Fair Testing

1 - I used the International Atomic Clock each time to make sure the timing was accurate.
2 - I made sure that the wheel was protected from bumps and stayed stationary to ensure the timing was accurate.
3 - We aligned the wheel accurately with the Celestial South Pole to be sure that the space station would pass it each time.
4 - I checked the alignment of the wheel with the Celestial South Pole before each pass of the Space Station was timed.
5 - I used two spotters to ensure we identified the space station in the sky with plenty of time to prepare for it passing the wheel.
6 - I used two spotters to accurately identify when the space station crossed the plane of the wheel.
7 - I did multiple time tests over a long period of time so that we could average out the results and reduce errors.

Conclusion

I was really surprised at how close the recorded times were to each other, even with using a basic method to time the space station passes. My testing showed that the International Space Station makes one orbit of the earth every 92 minutes and 32 seconds. This equates to orbiting the earth 15.56 times a day which is many more times than I expected. It must be travelling extremely fast – a lot faster than I thought.

Discussion

I was surprised that the method I used to time the space station passes provided such accurate and consistent results. Measuring the results over a longer period of time gives a longer sample period which helps to reduce differences and the size of errors between individual results. Being able to time at least one set of consecutive passes was critical to the experiment working.

I was also surprised at how fast the space station is travelling. It needs to travel this fast so that as it is falling to earth it is also travelling past earth and never actually gets closer to the earth’s surface.

The method I used can be used to time any satellite that orbits the earth more than once a day – there are thousands of them out there!

Further Learning

I have found out that you can calculate the orbit radius of a satellite from a formula based on Johannes Kepler’s 3rd law which he published in 1619. Using an online calculator the orbit radius for the space station works out at 6777km from the earth's centre. The earth has an average radius of 6371km which means that the space station is 406km high.

You can also work out the speed of the space station using the orbit period and orbit radius. The speed calculates at 7.67 km per second.

All satellites are in orbit around earth’s centre but not all rotate around the earth surface. These satellites appear to be stationary in relation to earth and they need to be a lot further away (thousands of kilometres) so that they are not affected as much by earth’s gravity. The satellite that SKY TV comes from is like this.

Bibliography

Kepler’s Third law (on line orbit calculator):
http://www.1728.org/kepler3a.htm
Heavens above (satellite prediction tables):
http://www.heavens-above.com/
Atomic Clock Time (timing space station passes)
http://www.timeanddate.com/time/internatio
nal-atomic-time.html

This young girl puts all HBs, including Neil Baker, to shame. She has asked a questiion, and set about using real observation, real research and real experimentation (ie. real science) to answer it. Along the way, with just a rudimentary, but well designed contraption and naked eye observation, she has;

1. Measured the orbital period of the ISS as 1:32:32. The actual orbital period was 1:32:41; only 9 seconds error in 5561 seconds, or 0.16%. Her calculation of the orbital speed at 7.67 km/s is very close to the published figure of 7.66 km/s.

2. Calculated the ISS orbital altitude as 406 km. It was actually 399 by 408 km around the time of her observations which corresponds to 403.5 kms... about 0.5%.


Here is the student along side per presentation. You can see a photo of her equatorially mounted bike wheel at the bottom. (Photo courtesy of the Cawthron Institute, Nelson, NZ - http://www.cawthron.org.nz/

Her entry won two prizes...

The Albert Jones Memorial Award
Sponsor: Nelson Science Society / Earth and Sky Ltd.
Prize: A fully funded trip to Mount John Observatory
Criteria: The best oral communication of a project during the interview process

The Royal Aeronautical Society Award
Sponsor: Royal Aeronautical Society, Blenheim Branch
Prize: $100
Criteria: The best investigation relating to 'flow', including hydro and aero dynamics, vessel building and design.

[Bryanpoprobson]

Real science from a 14 y.o. puts our HB friends to shame and the methodology she has used would dispel a few of the theories of Flat Earth believers too.

[Zakalwe]

<snip>

^Best post ever^

This young girl will probably go on to a very successful career somewhere. More power to her.
Indirectly, this also goes someway to explaining why the best and brightest work work in places like Google, NASA and so-on, whereas the hoaxie world appears filled with people will serious personality problems (Heiwa, Neil Baker, The Blunder) or the plain "thick as two short planks" (Tindarwhatisface, Dak Dak, Allan Weisbecker).

There's a bloke that comes to my house once a month to wash the windows. He is a conspiracy theory nutjob-he once proudly told me that Security ejected him from Kennedy Space Centre as he was being disruptive. I guess this explains why he goes up and down ladders for a living, whilst NASA/Space X and others go up and down into space....

[Peter B]

<snip>

^Best post ever^

This young girl will probably go on to a very successful career somewhere. More power to her.
Indirectly, this also goes someway to explaining why the best and brightest work work in places like Google, NASA and so-on, whereas the hoaxie world appears filled with people will serious personality problems (Heiwa, Neil Baker, The Blunder) or the plain "thick as two short planks" (Tindarwhatisface, Dak Dak, Allan Weisbecker).

There's a bloke that comes to my house once a month to wash the windows. He is a conspiracy theory nutjob-he once proudly told me that Security ejected him from Kennedy Space Centre as he was being disruptive. I guess this explains why he goes up and down ladders for a living, whilst NASA/Space X and others go up and down into space....

Agreed.

A clever experiment to come up with, and superbly executed.

Perhaps you could pass on our congratulations.

[Apollo 957]

A clever experiment to come up with, and superbly executed.

Perhaps you could pass on our congratulations.

I second that proposal