Author Topic: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.  (Read 669134 times)

Offline Allan F

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1245 on: January 31, 2016, 07:25:33 PM »
I remember looking up the power density at one of those battery comparison charts after seeing on something from NASA what the battery chemistry was on the rover. I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to do the same for the PLSS.

What would make a more intriguing problem is figuring out if there is sufficient battery life there. Tradosaurus seems to be assuming an electrically powered refrigeration cycle -- a Carnot heat engine, do I have the term right? Of course the sublimator isn't a closed-cycle unit; the work is derived from the reservoir of working fluid, and the limiting factor is the amount of water carried in the first place.

But...locally cooling just the back of your neck is probably not the most effective, so there is need to push cold water through the loops of the thermal undergarment to get it to where it is most wanted. And it might be fun to work out a rough approximation of what kind of power that might take.

The easiest way to do that would be to look up the pumps and use their powr consumption data as basis.
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Offline dwight

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1246 on: January 31, 2016, 08:02:34 PM »
NASA. Now that is clever. Right when I thought I had seen all the great one liners, I am reduced to tears and fits of laughter by this stunning display of comic wit.
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Offline gillianren

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1247 on: January 31, 2016, 10:24:46 PM »
Honestly, I've started to believe that any and all insults of that kind should result in having your posts edited by LO.  It's childish and petty, and it's certainly not persuasive.
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Offline nomuse

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1248 on: January 31, 2016, 10:46:25 PM »
I remember looking up the power density at one of those battery comparison charts after seeing on something from NASA what the battery chemistry was on the rover. I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to do the same for the PLSS.

What would make a more intriguing problem is figuring out if there is sufficient battery life there. Tradosaurus seems to be assuming an electrically powered refrigeration cycle -- a Carnot heat engine, do I have the term right? Of course the sublimator isn't a closed-cycle unit; the work is derived from the reservoir of working fluid, and the limiting factor is the amount of water carried in the first place.

But...locally cooling just the back of your neck is probably not the most effective, so there is need to push cold water through the loops of the thermal undergarment to get it to where it is most wanted. And it might be fun to work out a rough approximation of what kind of power that might take.

The easiest way to do that would be to look up the pumps and use their powr consumption data as basis.

Meh. I'd rather get a less precise answer that came from closer to first principles. That is, instead of "accepting NASA lies" or however the hoaxie de jour puts it, to make some assumptions about the thermal garment and how much pump it would actually take. Too complicated for me to want to model at any detail, though, and I'm not sure a Fermi estimation is close enough!

Only approximation I can make off-hand is those little decorative fountains you can pick up now that recharge over USB and have a battery about the size of my pinkie. My gut estimate, basically, is that the radio completely swamps the power requirements of the pump.

Offline Ishkabibble

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1249 on: January 31, 2016, 10:55:50 PM »
NASA. Now that is clever. Right when I thought I had seen all the great one liners, I am reduced to tears and fits of laughter by this stunning display of comic wit.
Honestly, I've started to believe that any and all insults of that kind should result in having your posts edited by LO.  It's childish and petty, and it's certainly not persuasive.

If I see another "astro-not" or "NASA" or anything remotely similar, I am going to ask for that precise requirement.

What we're all dealing with here, is some pimply-faced late-teens or early-twenties geek-nerd wannabe who really isn't doing all that well in his math or science classes, who desperately wants to be cool, without having the ability to be either smart or cool, and who can't be bothered to show that he desperately wants that.

I see it every day in the angst-ridden freshmen who are the entitled children of some rich politically-connected family, who didn't have either the grades or the SAT scores to get into a big-name college, so instead had to go to the local small school because that's the only one that would admit them. They're all too cool to be bothered, but are working very hard to demonstrate how cool they really are.

If the behavior keeps up, I'm going to ask for moderation.
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Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1250 on: February 01, 2016, 01:50:12 AM »
It ought to be possible for the forum software to auto-edit such stupidity :)

Offline ka9q

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1251 on: February 01, 2016, 04:03:30 AM »
LM and EMU batteries were contained inside structure.  What makes you think there would be any thermal fluctuations there?
Especially since the LM batteries were mounted on cold plates through which coolant was circulated that passed through a sublimator working on exactly the same principle as the one in the PLSS.
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The LM had approximately 1600 A h of batteries, of the then-exotic silver-zinc type.  These were the forerunners of today's quite ubiquitous high energy density batteries.  Exotic then, yes, but certainly not unheard of in the literature.
And they're still exotic. Perhaps the name is a clue as to why.

They do remain the battery type of choice in space launch vehicles. Capacity is roughly comparable to modern li-ion batteries, which were not produced until the 1990s. Ag-Zn does have a very poor cycle life as a rechargeable battery, but that wasn't a problem in Apollo. Most of its batteries never had to be recharged, and of those that did (CM entry batteries) only a few cycles were needed.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 04:06:18 AM by ka9q »

Offline ka9q

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1252 on: February 01, 2016, 04:20:22 AM »
According to NASA, the batteries during in the Apollo moon vacation (no qty given on their sight) were 3" x 2 3/4" x 6.78" and weighed 135 lbs.
An object 3" x 2.75" x 6.78" and weighing 135 lbm has a density of 66.8 g/cc. Water is 1 g/cc and uranium is 19.1 g/cc. Perhaps you should take more care when transcribing figures.
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My car battery is much bigger and weighs less than 30 lbs.  I guess 1960's technology was way more advanced than today.  LOL.
Perhaps you should investigate the various battery chemistries and why each might be preferred for a given application. Hint: look up the prices of the raw materials involved.
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Again, i ask the nasa fanbase what powered the sublimator to heat and cool the suits and module in extreme temperatures using 1960's technology?
Asked and answered, but I do congratulate you on correctly spelling the acronym of the US space agency. The sublimator required no electrical power, but it did require a feedwater supply and a source of pressure. The coolant circulating pumps did require electrical power, about 30 watts total for each PLSS.

Offline nomuse

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1253 on: February 01, 2016, 08:49:32 PM »
NASA. Now that is clever. Right when I thought I had seen all the great one liners, I am reduced to tears and fits of laughter by this stunning display of comic wit.

I'm disappointed. I was holding out a slim hope that he was combining "NASA" and "Nazca," and was going to somehow tie up his flat Earth nonsense with some good Ancient Aliens nonsense.

Offline tradosaurus

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1254 on: February 02, 2016, 08:33:20 AM »
Of course he also wasn't aware he went through the Van Allen radiation belts. lol

That's because he didn't.

Quote
Also battery technology would have been extremely heavy and bulky and most definitely could not have lasted long in +/- 200F temperatures.

LM and EMU batteries were contained inside structure.  What makes you think there would be any thermal fluctuations there?

The LM had approximately 1600 A h of batteries, of the then-exotic silver-zinc type.  These were the forerunners of today's quite ubiquitous high energy density batteries.  Exotic then, yes, but certainly not unheard of in the literature.

Quote
I think the sublimator is a neat parlor trick by NASA but you can't get there from here on the power to run this fictitious piece of cooling equipment.

Sublimators are fictitious?  Sublimators are NASA-only technology?  And you claim to be an engineer?
You nasa fan boys need to get on the same page.  I've read many articles that state that the Apollo missions went through the Van Allen belts.
http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/vintage-space/apollo-rocketed-through-van-allen-belts

Also NASA is still trying figure out the radiation belts for the future and fictitious Mars mission.  Why not just use the data from the 1960's technology that the Apollo missions use to navigate the belts?  Or did NASA lose that also?
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Offline bknight

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1255 on: February 02, 2016, 08:39:51 AM »
Of course he also wasn't aware he went through the Van Allen radiation belts. lol

That's because he didn't.

Quote
Also battery technology would have been extremely heavy and bulky and most definitely could not have lasted long in +/- 200F temperatures.

LM and EMU batteries were contained inside structure.  What makes you think there would be any thermal fluctuations there?

The LM had approximately 1600 A h of batteries, of the then-exotic silver-zinc type.  These were the forerunners of today's quite ubiquitous high energy density batteries.  Exotic then, yes, but certainly not unheard of in the literature.

Quote
I think the sublimator is a neat parlor trick by NASA but you can't get there from here on the power to run this fictitious piece of cooling equipment.

Sublimators are fictitious?  Sublimators are NASA-only technology?  And you claim to be an engineer?
You nasa fan boys need to get on the same page.  I've read many articles that state that the Apollo missions went through the Van Allen belts.
http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/vintage-space/apollo-rocketed-through-van-allen-belts

Also NASA is still trying figure out the radiation belts for the future and fictitious Mars mission.  Why not just use the data from the 1960's technology that the Apollo missions use to navigate the belts?  Or did NASA lose that also?

Jay's comment was concerning Alan's SpaceLab mission that did not go through the VARB, the video comment has been taken out of context.  Get your facts straight.
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Offline frenat

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1256 on: February 02, 2016, 08:44:21 AM »
Of course he also wasn't aware he went through the Van Allen radiation belts. lol

That's because he didn't.

Quote
Also battery technology would have been extremely heavy and bulky and most definitely could not have lasted long in +/- 200F temperatures.

LM and EMU batteries were contained inside structure.  What makes you think there would be any thermal fluctuations there?

The LM had approximately 1600 A h of batteries, of the then-exotic silver-zinc type.  These were the forerunners of today's quite ubiquitous high energy density batteries.  Exotic then, yes, but certainly not unheard of in the literature.

Quote
I think the sublimator is a neat parlor trick by NASA but you can't get there from here on the power to run this fictitious piece of cooling equipment.

Sublimators are fictitious?  Sublimators are NASA-only technology?  And you claim to be an engineer?
You nasa fan boys need to get on the same page.  I've read many articles that state that the Apollo missions went through the Van Allen belts.
http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/vintage-space/apollo-rocketed-through-van-allen-belts

Also NASA is still trying figure out the radiation belts for the future and fictitious Mars mission.  Why not just use the data from the 1960's technology that the Apollo missions use to navigate the belts?  Or did NASA lose that also?

Jay's comment was concerning Alan's SpaceLab mission that did not go through the VARB, the video comment has been taken out of context.  Get your facts straight.
and while the Apollo missions did go through the belts, they went on a trajectory through the thinner out edges.
What they are concerned with for Mars is not the belts but the cumulative effect from months of interplanetary travel. 
This has all been mentioned before, Tradosaurus.  Perhaps you should read the replies you get.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1257 on: February 02, 2016, 09:57:20 AM »
You nasa fan boys need to get on the same page.  I've read many articles that state that the Apollo missions went through the Van Allen belts.

And while you're frantically Googling the popular literature that simplifies the issue, many of the rest of us are quite capable of plotting the actual orbit.  I even spoke to Dr. Van Allen about it, before he passed away.

The Apollo missions adopted an inclination that largely skirted the trapped radiation belts.  By manipulating altitude and inclination, several departure trajectories are possible that largely miss the Van Allen belts.  Let me know when you've worked out those orbital mechanics.

But to respond to your actual question -- no, Bean did not go through the Van Allen belts on his Skylab mission, which was where the quote was lifted from.  You need to stop relying on third-party sources, especially those sympathetic to the hoax claims who doctor and misrepresent the facts.  They know you won't check up on them.

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Also NASA is still trying figure out the radiation belts for the future and fictitious Mars mission.  Why not just use the data from the 1960's technology that the Apollo missions use to navigate the belts?  Or did NASA lose that also?

Before I discuss present and future operations, I'll just let you mull over the obvious contradiction in your claim that is utterly unapparent to you.

What about all that data?  Guess what -- the AP and AE models from before and during Apollo are the de facto standard for those us who work commercially in the field.  You don't seem to realize it, but NASA isn't the be-all and end-all of space.  All my work in space has been done for commercial companies who are working for profit.  Two of the objects I mentioned earlier traversed the Van Allen belts, and others I've worked on tangentially operate continuously in them.  These are projects with billion-dollar budgets, made for private customers.  We guaranteed our work, and everyone involved took out enormous insurance policies that would pay out for early failure.

Now imagine of all those trapped radiation models were wrong.  Imagine what would happen if our products failed prematurely because of it.  We'd lose credibility in the industry, and the insurance companies would most assuredly investigate the causes of the failures, up to and including the validity of the information on which the designs were built. There are vast financial incentives for making sure NASA did its job.

You talk a big game about "following the money," but in fact you have no clue where the money comes from and goes to in this industry.  You maintain your teenage spy novel view of the world, in almost total ignorance of what actually happens.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 10:10:28 AM by JayUtah »
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Offline raven

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1258 on: February 02, 2016, 10:34:20 AM »
Would the Earth's magnetic field, and, therefore, the Van Allen belts even have the right shape in tradosaurus's little flat world? The Earth's magnetic pole twin to the one in the Arctic wouldn't even be in Antarctica but off the map completely!

Offline bknight

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1259 on: February 02, 2016, 11:31:37 AM »
You nasa fan boys need to get on the same page.  I've read many articles that state that the Apollo missions went through the Van Allen belts.

And while you're frantically Googling the popular literature that simplifies the issue, many of the rest of us are quite capable of plotting the actual orbit.  I even spoke to Dr. Van Allen about it, before he passed away.
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