Author Topic: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.  (Read 669147 times)

Offline mako88sb

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1260 on: February 02, 2016, 12:48:22 PM »
Two of the objects I mentioned earlier traversed the Van Allen belts, and others I've worked on tangentially operate continuously in them.  These are projects with billion-dollar budgets, made for private customers.  We guaranteed our work, and everyone involved took out enormous insurance policies that would pay out for early failure.

One thing I keep meaning to ask that I've been curious about since watching one of the James Burke episodes were he mentioned the 99.99992% reliability standard every component was built to for the Apollo missions. What kind of standard is set for commercial satellites and NASA unmanned missions? There must be some kind of sliding scale depending on how expensive the mission or satellite is but were would it start at? 95% for a relatively cheap satellite for example? I imagine that reliability figure must make a difference with the insurance premiums as well.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1261 on: February 02, 2016, 01:15:50 PM »
One thing I keep meaning to ask that I've been curious about since watching one of the James Burke episodes were he mentioned the 99.99992% reliability standard every component was built to for the Apollo missions. What kind of standard is set for commercial satellites and NASA unmanned missions? There must be some kind of sliding scale depending on how expensive the mission or satellite is but were would it start at? 95% for a relatively cheap satellite for example? I imagine that reliability figure must make a difference with the insurance premiums as well.

That's a hornet's nest of a question because system reliability and component reliability are different things.  You build components to a certain number of "nines" of reliability because the way they combine into a system invokes statistical computations to determine the statistical reliability of assemblies, subsystems, and entire systems for the span of a given mission.  I mentioned I worked (in the early phase) on the Antares rocket, which was originally in a class of rockets generally considered to have only 1-2 "nines" overall.  A 1 in 20 failure rate is acceptable for some applications, especially when a goal is to reduce cost per launch.  But in order to get even that amount, several of the components have to be built to 3-4 "nines" (i.e., probability of success during a mission > 0.9995).

Here's a simple example.  Let's say your car has four tires and each tire is built to two nines, or probability of "mission" success for each tire is 0.99.  But all four tires have to work, so you multiply them together to get the overall reliability for the tire "subsystem" -- algebraically, psys = pcnc where c denotes a component.  You end up with 0.96.  By needing four of the components in order for the system to work, you lose almost half a "nine" in the tires' contribution to overall trip success.

Conversely you can design things so that component reliability works in your favor.  If you really need a rocket engine to fire, you can have two parallel (i.e., redundant) fuel paths, each with its own inlet valve.  The idea is that only one of them has to operate in order for the engine to fire.  If you want 4 nines for that engine then the combinatorial math works the other direction.  It means you can tolerate a p <= 0.0001 probability of failure, which means that's the probability of both inlet valves failing.  That involves the nth root, n = 2, and thus acceptable component failure is p <= 0.01.  You only need two nines of reliability on the valves by arranging them redundantly.

Doing this for an entire design, using appropriately sophisticated statistical methods, complexity analysis, and criticality analysis, you come up with reliability budgets at different scopes of examination in the design.  And unfortunately for component-level designers, this often means that critical components need to be built to unbelievably high reliability factors.
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Offline mako88sb

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1262 on: February 02, 2016, 01:30:03 PM »
One thing I keep meaning to ask that I've been curious about since watching one of the James Burke episodes were he mentioned the 99.99992% reliability standard every component was built to for the Apollo missions. What kind of standard is set for commercial satellites and NASA unmanned missions? There must be some kind of sliding scale depending on how expensive the mission or satellite is but were would it start at? 95% for a relatively cheap satellite for example? I imagine that reliability figure must make a difference with the insurance premiums as well.

That's a hornet's nest of a question because system reliability and component reliability are different things.  You build components to a certain number of "nines" of reliability because the way they combine into a system invokes statistical computations to determine the statistical reliability of assemblies, subsystems, and entire systems for the span of a given mission.  I mentioned I worked (in the early phase) on the Antares rocket, which was originally in a class of rockets generally considered to have only 1-2 "nines" overall.  A 1 in 20 failure rate is acceptable for some applications, especially when a goal is to reduce cost per launch.  But in order to get even that amount, several of the components have to be built to 3-4 "nines" (i.e., probability of success during a mission > 0.9995).

Here's a simple example.  Let's say your car has four tires and each tire is built to two nines, or probability of "mission" success for each tire is 0.99.  But all four tires have to work, so you multiply them together to get the overall reliability for the tire "subsystem" -- algebraically, psys = pcnc where c denotes a component.  You end up with 0.96.  By needing four of the components in order for the system to work, you lose almost half a "nine" in the tires' contribution to overall trip success.

Conversely you can design things so that component reliability works in your favor.  If you really need a rocket engine to fire, you can have two parallel (i.e., redundant) fuel paths, each with its own inlet valve.  The idea is that only one of them has to operate in order for the engine to fire.  If you want 4 nines for that engine then the combinatorial math works the other direction.  It means you can tolerate a p <= 0.0001 probability of failure, which means that's the probability of both inlet valves failing.  That involves the nth root, n = 2, and thus acceptable component failure is p <= 0.01.  You only need two nines of reliability on the valves by arranging them redundantly.

Doing this for an entire design, using appropriately sophisticated statistical methods, complexity analysis, and criticality analysis, you come up with reliability budgets at different scopes of examination in the design.  And unfortunately for component-level designers, this often means that critical components need to be built to unbelievably high reliability factors.

Thanks Jay. I figured it would be a fairly complex topic and your explanation helps quite a bit. Considering the Apollo missions were relatively short compared to what they plan for Orion, I have a hard time imagining how much more thorough they have to be with components and systems that will be much more complicated. It's still a bit mind boggling to see how they managed to accomplish what they did after Kennedy's announcement for reaching the moon when they hadn't even launched a manned mission yet.

Offline raven

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1263 on: February 02, 2016, 01:54:46 PM »
Well, a lot was in the planning or even development stages when he gave the speech , with  the first test firing of the mighty F-1 occurring in March 1959, about 3 and 1/2 years before then.

Offline tradosaurus

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1264 on: February 04, 2016, 09:23:01 PM »

What you either don't know or are ignoring is Al Bean was discussing the Skylab mission when the question of the Van Allen Belts came up. Taking a quote out of context is a poor way to get answers.
That part has been clipped out so it is out of context also.  I haven't heard the original video  where the Skylab question was asked, thanks for the info.
Another Apollo defender posted a clip of the actual question and answer on Youtube, but unfortunately I failed to save it anywhere and I cannot remember who it was who posted it. I'm afraid it's just my word on that until and unless I can find the clip, so take it with the appropriate grain of salt.
Read Van Allen's article on the radiation belts in the 1959 Scientific American.   If you believe that rockets can operate in a vacuum then this article talks about measurements taken of the radiation levels in the belts.   Supposedly they were extremely high and dangerous to any humans.
https://www.testofbelievers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/VanAllenBelts-SciAm-Mar1959.pdf

I don't know how the clip of Alan Bean was taken out of context.

You can watch the lies from Mr. Bean start here and I believe you can see it all in the same context.  https://youtu.be/LAbpWaDL4Zc?t=10m15s

I'm really surprised at the lengths the nasa fan base will go to defend inconsistencies and fabrications from nasa.
NASA:  Faking space for over 50 years.

Offline Allan F

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1265 on: February 04, 2016, 09:34:20 PM »

What you either don't know or are ignoring is Al Bean was discussing the Skylab mission when the question of the Van Allen Belts came up. Taking a quote out of context is a poor way to get answers.
That part has been clipped out so it is out of context also.  I haven't heard the original video  where the Skylab question was asked, thanks for the info.
Another Apollo defender posted a clip of the actual question and answer on Youtube, but unfortunately I failed to save it anywhere and I cannot remember who it was who posted it. I'm afraid it's just my word on that until and unless I can find the clip, so take it with the appropriate grain of salt.
Read Van Allen's article on the radiation belts in the 1959 Scientific American.   If you believe that rockets can operate in a vacuum then this article talks about measurements taken of the radiation levels in the belts.   Supposedly they were extremely high and dangerous to any humans.
https://www.testofbelievers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/VanAllenBelts-SciAm-Mar1959.pdf

I don't know how the clip of Alan Bean was taken out of context.

You can watch the lies from Mr. Bean start here and I believe you can see it all in the same context.  https://youtu.be/LAbpWaDL4Zc?t=10m15s

I'm really surprised at the lengths the NASA fan base will go to defend inconsistencies and fabrications from NASA.

It's all old debunked nonsense. Bean was talking about his Skylab tour. The 1959 study was later refined and is now the basis for all space activity radiation consideration.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline bknight

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1266 on: February 04, 2016, 09:37:08 PM »

What you either don't know or are ignoring is Al Bean was discussing the Skylab mission when the question of the Van Allen Belts came up. Taking a quote out of context is a poor way to get answers.
That part has been clipped out so it is out of context also.  I haven't heard the original video  where the Skylab question was asked, thanks for the info.
Another Apollo defender posted a clip of the actual question and answer on Youtube, but unfortunately I failed to save it anywhere and I cannot remember who it was who posted it. I'm afraid it's just my word on that until and unless I can find the clip, so take it with the appropriate grain of salt.
Read Van Allen's article on the radiation belts in the 1959 Scientific American.   If you believe that rockets can operate in a vacuum then this article talks about measurements taken of the radiation levels in the belts.   Supposedly they were extremely high and dangerous to any humans.
https://www.testofbelievers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/VanAllenBelts-SciAm-Mar1959.pdf

I don't know how the clip of Alan Bean was taken out of context.

You can watch the lies from Mr. Bean start here and I believe you can see it all in the same context.  https://youtu.be/LAbpWaDL4Zc?t=10m15s

I'm really surprised at the lengths the NASA fan base will go to defend inconsistencies and fabrications from NASA.
Dr. Van Allen did indeed state that in 1959, however, these comments were directed to plans for an orbiting space station at 1000 miles, one of the proposals at the time, and indeed without a great deal of protection those astronauts would be in danger, in fact when the ISS travels through the South Atlantic Anomaly, the astronauts need to go to a more safe portion of the ISS to have time to regenerate.
Now when Apollo flew to the moon the trajectory was through the less dense portions of the belts and since exposure is related to flux and exposure time the dose was very small.
Here is a post with a letter from him.
http://cosmoquest.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-3885.html
in addition since you are an "Engineer" you should be able to compute the radiation amounts using
http://spacemath.gsfc.nasa.gov/Algebra1/3Page7.pdf
No mysterier no lies no fabrications, just years of study and real Engineers working the problems.
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Offline tradosaurus

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1267 on: February 04, 2016, 09:39:20 PM »
Basically you have a lot of argument from incredulity and not much else.

they did use batteries, the specs of which are available if you look and you can see there WAS enough power for what they needed to do.

As for the Van Allen belts, why should he remember an insignificant part of the trip multiple years later when they were on a preplanned trajectory that took them AROUND the belts anyway?
If the Van Allen belts are so insignificant why is NASA trying to figure out how to get through them on their supposed planned trip to Mars?
Is not that Van Allen Belts are dangerous, its the interplanetary space. Orion will need to travel for months in that place opposed to Apollo.

https://youtu.be/NlXG0REiVzE

The video of the nasa engineer admitting they don't know how to get through the belts.  Also this engineer states that  "just as it [orion] passes over the Indian ocean we lose all communication".  LOL.  What happened to the 20,000+ satellites in orbit?  Why can't Orion stay in communication? 

This guy certainly received his B.S in engineering but the B.S. doesn't mean bachelor of science. 

If you want to see a better space actor  and egomaniac watch the conference with Adam Steltzner talking about the rover that landed on Mars.  When asked about the image file type use to capture the image from Mars he states "Unfortunately I cannot" and then asked about the landing coordinates had a perplexed look on his face and stated "I can't confirm that"  lol

NASA:  Faking space for over 50 years.

Offline tradosaurus

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1268 on: February 04, 2016, 09:41:09 PM »

What you either don't know or are ignoring is Al Bean was discussing the Skylab mission when the question of the Van Allen Belts came up. Taking a quote out of context is a poor way to get answers.
That part has been clipped out so it is out of context also.  I haven't heard the original video  where the Skylab question was asked, thanks for the info.
Another Apollo defender posted a clip of the actual question and answer on Youtube, but unfortunately I failed to save it anywhere and I cannot remember who it was who posted it. I'm afraid it's just my word on that until and unless I can find the clip, so take it with the appropriate grain of salt.
Read Van Allen's article on the radiation belts in the 1959 Scientific American.   If you believe that rockets can operate in a vacuum then this article talks about measurements taken of the radiation levels in the belts.   Supposedly they were extremely high and dangerous to any humans.
https://www.testofbelievers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/VanAllenBelts-SciAm-Mar1959.pdf

I don't know how the clip of Alan Bean was taken out of context.

You can watch the lies from Mr. Bean start here and I believe you can see it all in the same context.  https://youtu.be/LAbpWaDL4Zc?t=10m15s

I'm really surprised at the lengths the NASA fan base will go to defend inconsistencies and fabrications from NASA.

It's all old debunked nonsense. Bean was talking about his Skylab tour. The 1959 study was later refined and is now the basis for all space activity radiation consideration.

Yeah sure.  And you watched the video right?  This is the reason I keep stating that the globe earth universe is a religion.  You refuse to believe the words out of legitimate nasa astro-not.
NASA:  Faking space for over 50 years.

Offline tradosaurus

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1269 on: February 04, 2016, 09:42:59 PM »

What you either don't know or are ignoring is Al Bean was discussing the Skylab mission when the question of the Van Allen Belts came up. Taking a quote out of context is a poor way to get answers.
That part has been clipped out so it is out of context also.  I haven't heard the original video  where the Skylab question was asked, thanks for the info.
Another Apollo defender posted a clip of the actual question and answer on Youtube, but unfortunately I failed to save it anywhere and I cannot remember who it was who posted it. I'm afraid it's just my word on that until and unless I can find the clip, so take it with the appropriate grain of salt.
Read Van Allen's article on the radiation belts in the 1959 Scientific American.   If you believe that rockets can operate in a vacuum then this article talks about measurements taken of the radiation levels in the belts.   Supposedly they were extremely high and dangerous to any humans.
https://www.testofbelievers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/VanAllenBelts-SciAm-Mar1959.pdf

I don't know how the clip of Alan Bean was taken out of context.

You can watch the lies from Mr. Bean start here and I believe you can see it all in the same context.  https://youtu.be/LAbpWaDL4Zc?t=10m15s

I'm really surprised at the lengths the NASA fan base will go to defend inconsistencies and fabrications from NASA.
Dr. Van Allen did indeed state that in 1959, however, these comments were directed to plans for an orbiting space station at 1000 miles, one of the proposals at the time, and indeed without a great deal of protection those astronauts would be in danger, in fact when the ISS travels through the South Atlantic Anomaly, the astronauts need to go to a more safe portion of the ISS to have time to regenerate.
Now when Apollo flew to the moon the trajectory was through the less dense portions of the belts and since exposure is related to flux and exposure time the dose was very small.
Here is a post with a letter from him.
http://cosmoquest.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-3885.html
in addition since you are an "Engineer" you should be able to compute the radiation amounts using
http://spacemath.gsfc.NASA.gov/Algebra1/3Page7.pdf
No mysterier no lies no fabrications, just years of study and real Engineers working the problems.

You just make this stuff up as you go don't you or you are parroting what nasa is feeding you.   Again it all boils down to I believe what someone else tells me to believe which proves that modern day science is a religion.
NASA:  Faking space for over 50 years.

Offline bknight

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1270 on: February 04, 2016, 09:45:17 PM »
Basically you have a lot of argument from incredulity and not much else.

they did use batteries, the specs of which are available if you look and you can see there WAS enough power for what they needed to do.

As for the Van Allen belts, why should he remember an insignificant part of the trip multiple years later when they were on a preplanned trajectory that took them AROUND the belts anyway?
If the Van Allen belts are so insignificant why is NASA trying to figure out how to get through them on their supposed planned trip to Mars?
Is not that Van Allen Belts are dangerous, its the interplanetary space. Orion will need to travel for months in that place opposed to Apollo.

https://youtu.be/NlXG0REiVzE

The video of the NASA engineer admitting they don't know how to get through the belts.  Also this engineer states that  "just as it [orion] passes over the Indian ocean we lose all communication".  LOL.  What happened to the 20,000+ satellites in orbit?  Why can't Orion stay in communication? 

This guy certainly received his B.S in engineering but the B.S. doesn't mean bachelor of science. 

If you want to see a better space actor  and egomaniac watch the conference with Adam Steltzner talking about the rover that landed on Mars.  When asked about the image file type use to capture the image from Mars he states "Unfortunately I cannot" and then asked about the landing coordinates had a perplexed look on his face and stated "I can't confirm that"  lol
Nowhere in that video does Mr. Smith state that NASA hasn't/can't get through the VARB.  The Orion capsule uses much radiation damage prone electronics, not the RTL very stable electronics of Apollo for a 14 day mission.  Orion is being designed for much longer flights perhaps years.
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Offline raven

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1271 on: February 04, 2016, 09:47:44 PM »
Basically you have a lot of argument from incredulity and not much else.

they did use batteries, the specs of which are available if you look and you can see there WAS enough power for what they needed to do.

As for the Van Allen belts, why should he remember an insignificant part of the trip multiple years later when they were on a preplanned trajectory that took them AROUND the belts anyway?
If the Van Allen belts are so insignificant why is NASA trying to figure out how to get through them on their supposed planned trip to Mars?
Is not that Van Allen Belts are dangerous, its the interplanetary space. Orion will need to travel for months in that place opposed to Apollo.

https://youtu.be/NlXG0REiVzE

The video of the NASA engineer admitting they don't know how to get through the belts.  Also this engineer states that  "just as it [orion] passes over the Indian ocean we lose all communication".  LOL.  What happened to the 20,000+ satellites in orbit?  Why can't Orion stay in communication? 

Good question, why can't it stay in communications? If the world was flat, no satellite would ever be out of line of sight from Earth unless it dipped around the underside, but if the world is round, it could go 'behind the horizon' and be blocked by the curvature of the Earth and all that dirt and rock.
In response to additional post: You take them out of context, literally quote mining and making them lies of your creation. If someone climbed Mt. Everest, and then, when asked about climbing  Hadley Mountain, said 'I don't think we went much higher than 800 metres', would it not be lying if you tried to use this quote as evidence they didn't climb Mount Everest.
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Offline bknight

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1272 on: February 04, 2016, 09:49:27 PM »
Quote
Dr. Van Allen did indeed state that in 1959, however, these comments were directed to plans for an orbiting space station at 1000 miles, one of the proposals at the time, and indeed without a great deal of protection those astronauts would be in danger, in fact when the ISS travels through the South Atlantic Anomaly, the astronauts need to go to a more safe portion of the ISS to have time to regenerate.
Now when Apollo flew to the moon the trajectory was through the less dense portions of the belts and since exposure is related to flux and exposure time the dose was very small.
Here is a post with a letter from him.
http://cosmoquest.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-3885.html
in addition since you are an "Engineer" you should be able to compute the radiation amounts using
http://spacemath.gsfc.NASA.gov/Algebra1/3Page7.pdf
No mysterier no lies no fabrications, just years of study and real Engineers working the problems.

You just make this stuff up as you go don't you or you are parroting what NASA is feeding you.   Again it all boils down to I believe what someone else tells me to believe which proves that modern day science is a religion.
Did you look at the links or just hand wave them away, troll.
Do you think that further studies of the VARB possibly changed Dr. Van Allen analysis?
You continue to show us that you may have a degree, but you have no clue how to act like and engineer. 

ETA:
Jay has been in direct comment with Dr. Van Allen substantiating the post in CosmoQuest, so I would say the analysis changed with further study, including the trajectory of Apollo.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 10:08:59 PM by bknight »
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Offline frenat

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1273 on: February 04, 2016, 10:13:43 PM »

What you either don't know or are ignoring is Al Bean was discussing the Skylab mission when the question of the Van Allen Belts came up. Taking a quote out of context is a poor way to get answers.
That part has been clipped out so it is out of context also.  I haven't heard the original video  where the Skylab question was asked, thanks for the info.
Another Apollo defender posted a clip of the actual question and answer on Youtube, but unfortunately I failed to save it anywhere and I cannot remember who it was who posted it. I'm afraid it's just my word on that until and unless I can find the clip, so take it with the appropriate grain of salt.
Read Van Allen's article on the radiation belts in the 1959 Scientific American.   If you believe that rockets can operate in a vacuum then this article talks about measurements taken of the radiation levels in the belts.   Supposedly they were extremely high and dangerous to any humans.
https://www.testofbelievers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/VanAllenBelts-SciAm-Mar1959.pdf
I see "two zones of high-energyparticles, against which space travelers will have to be shielded"
they were shielded AND they went through the outer edges.
And this "Unless some practical way can be found to shield space travelers against the effects of the radiation, manned space-rockets can best take off through the radiation-free zone over the poles"
And AGAIN, they were shielded and while they didn't quite go through the poles, they did take a highly inclined orbit that took them through the thinner outer edges where the radiation was less and they got through it faster.

You were told this before and you've only proven you didn't bother to read.

Interesting that you don't believe rockets work in space yet you accept the measurements taken by a probe carried by a rocket in space.

I don't know how the clip of Alan Bean was taken out of context.
Because that is what hoaxies do?

I'm really surprised at the lengths the NASA fan base will go to defend inconsistencies and fabrications from NASA.
Were you going to come up with any inconsistencies and fabrications?  Because so far all we've got is hoaxie lies and deliberate misinterpretations.
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Offline frenat

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Re: Why I suspect Apollo was a hoax.
« Reply #1274 on: February 04, 2016, 10:15:01 PM »
Basically you have a lot of argument from incredulity and not much else.

they did use batteries, the specs of which are available if you look and you can see there WAS enough power for what they needed to do.

As for the Van Allen belts, why should he remember an insignificant part of the trip multiple years later when they were on a preplanned trajectory that took them AROUND the belts anyway?
If the Van Allen belts are so insignificant why is NASA trying to figure out how to get through them on their supposed planned trip to Mars?
Is not that Van Allen Belts are dangerous, its the interplanetary space. Orion will need to travel for months in that place opposed to Apollo.

https://youtu.be/NlXG0REiVzE

The video of the NASA engineer admitting they don't know how to get through the belts.  Also this engineer states that  "just as it [orion] passes over the Indian ocean we lose all communication".  LOL.  What happened to the 20,000+ satellites in orbit?  Why can't Orion stay in communication? 

This guy certainly received his B.S in engineering but the B.S. doesn't mean bachelor of science. 

If you want to see a better space actor  and egomaniac watch the conference with Adam Steltzner talking about the rover that landed on Mars.  When asked about the image file type use to capture the image from Mars he states "Unfortunately I cannot" and then asked about the landing coordinates had a perplexed look on his face and stated "I can't confirm that"  lol
And again he was talking about testing the electronics.
-Reality is not determined by your lack of comprehension.
 -Never let facts stand in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
 -There are no bad ideas, just great ideas that go horribly wrong.