HBs, CTs, Deniers, Alien Apologists...

[bknight]

...

And the reason that just came to me is this; they aren't a rocket scientist, but they play one on YouTube. They reach for what appear to be mistakes in basic science and logic because those are easy to illustrate and sound intelligent. They fight fire with fire; confront the entire idea of the cadre of rocket scientists who managed these feats with what look to be scientific blunders.

And they succeed because their target audience is no better at science or logic then they are, and in any case is uninterested in disagreeing.

And there is another, closely-related reason. Many of the things the hoaxies like to point at and claim violate science, do indeed violate something. But that something isn't science; it is intuition, the "common sense" formed of of a lifetime of experience at the bottom of a gravity well swimming in a blanket of compressed gas at almost exactly the triple point of water; a most peculiar environment indeed by the standards of the universe.

So they have their little videos and their sound-bite quotes of "no stars were visible" and "it got very cold on board" and they are easily able to point and gibber, "This doesn't make sense! This is obviously scientifically wrong!"

Oh, yes. And once they've found one of these killer observations (like "no stars"), they'll hold on to it with sheer emotional doggedness. This I am convinced is why we get ever more esoteric discussions with some hoaxies about whether a specific astronaut on a specific mission meant exactly what he said when he described seeing or not seeing extra-lunar objects. Because somewhere down there in the hoaxies emotional makeup is that treasured "aha!" moment when they realized there were no stars in the backgrounds of the Apollo Surface Record, and they are unwilling to finally let go of that first love.

That is exactly what the early Hoax crowd did and does to this day.  Their subtle and slick videos/books can suck in the unsuspecting novice people that have viewed their surroundings here on Mother Earth.  Then when they hear "this can't possible be ...".  We have seen this over and over with stupid statements that are close enough to trap the unsuspecting.

[bknight]

...

I've also pretty much given up on YT, because of Hunchbacked and Batmannn. Those two guys, I'm convinced, are taking contrarian positions just because they can.

...

Hunchbacked seem to be prolific a few years ago, but seems like he ran out of ideas.  I posted a bunch of debunks on his video concerning Apollo 12 and the photo mosaic around the Surveyor 3 lander.  I quit debunking around the 5 minute mark and that was perhaps 2 weeks ago and I've not been notified of a comment.
His "anomalies" were just too easy to pick apart.

[Ishkabibble]

I've seen the "Irrefutable Proof for Moon Landing - Lunar Gravity" video by amontaiyagala, and I found it really great. My problem with Hunchbacked, Batmannn and a couple of the others is that even when you completely trap them in something that is absolutely and totally irrefutable, they immediately go into "spin mode" and say, "yes, but what about?" which is a complete and total sidestep of the premise of needing information to accept. If a hoaxer says "I need X as irrefutable proof" and then you give them X, they then always say "Yes, but what about A? That's obviously fake!" in such a way that no one can ever make them admit they're wrong.

There's a pathology for this, but for the life of me, I can't remember exactly what the name of it is. I really don't like it when I can't remember something like this. I guess when one gets old, the memory really is the second thing to go...

Hunchbacked seemed to have the wind taken out of his sails by Lunchpacked and GoneToPlaid, to the point that he pretty much wound down. I guess that's the reason why GoneToPlaid shut his page down. I wish he hadn't done that. There were some fantastic refutations and rebuttals on it, and I had most of them bookmarked. Wish I'd copied them now.  There was one post where someone told Hunchbacked something along the lines of "if there is no piece of evidence that will ever convince you, then what are you even doing? If your mind is that closed, why do you even bother?" and he went all ballistic over it. I guess they can't deal with it when their delusions come crashing down around them....

There are a few on YT who have had to have made a concerted effort to completely ignore pages like Clavius, Braeunig, Cosmoquest, and Bad Astronomy, (and this one, too) because like Moon Man, AwE, and Neil Baker, they all seem to just regurgitate all the old, tired, worn out things. I know how frustrating it is to have to see that, I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to have to refute them over and over and over again.

I saw something on the 'net the other day on one of the groups I follow, and with a minor alteration, I think it made a fantastic addition to my sig.

The original statement was "You don't "believe" in evolution. You either understand it or you don't." So I changed it to fit. Heh...

Thanks for the great discussion! This is a superb forum.

[smartcooky]

There is another member here too who has realised the reality of Apollo from having once been a Hoax Believer.... Dr.Acula.

Perhaps LunarOrbit and/or Dr.Acula might like to give us an idea what it was that made them rethink their positions; was it a gradual realisation or was there a "watershed moment"?

[Zakalwe]

The only other one that I can think of is Vincent McConnell, though he seems to have just been a young misguided teenager who eventual saw the error of his ways.

Vince was the one I thought of, for someone who was a good friend of Kangaboy it was a huge turnaround for the lad. I speak to him regularly, his conversion was due in no small part to Astrobrant2. But in general it is hard to convince most HB to change their opinion, because they like to think they are "some way" separate from the rest of the sheeple. I am convinced that most Hoax Believers have brains that condition them into readily believing conspiracy theories, it is common for most of them to have multiple beliefs, be it NWO, 9-11, Chem-Trails, UFO's, etc, etc. With such ingrained acceptance of wild notions it is hard to make them waiver in their opinions. When faced with overwhelming evidence that a particular piece of evidence is wrong, rather than reconsider the whole premise of their belief, they switch to the "But what about this!" mode.

Vincent went on to claim that the Chinese missions were hoaxes. It seems that hoax belief has to do with a way of thinking (or not thinking!) and possibly a whiff of xenophobia thrown in.

[bknight]

Vincent went on to claim that the Chinese missions were hoaxes. It seems that hoax belief has to do with a way of thinking (or not thinking!) and possibly a whiff of xenophobia thrown in.

I know that Marcus Allen did a bit on the Chinese" "hoax" during one of his recorded seminars.  No geographic or ideological barriers to HB's.

[darren r]

Perhaps LunarOrbit and/or Dr.Acula might like to give us an idea what it was that made them rethink their positions; was it a gradual realisation or was there a "watershed moment"?

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure LunarOrbit was not the original owner of this site and hence was never an HB.

[Luke Pemberton]

Vince was the one I thought of, for someone who was a good friend of Kangaboy it was a huge turnaround for the lad.

Yes, and I remember when Vince jumped on the other fence and began chucking rocks at Jarrah's glasshouse. If I recall he smashed enough windows with DMCA abuse to have Jarrah's account closed for a little time. They were at each others throats with video, counter-video, counter-counter-video, counter-counter-counter-video. It was quite pathetic from both sides really.

[bknight]

Thread hijack.
I was looking at the pro-boards archives and ran across a thread that dealt with double recitals.  So I Googled   double recitals and came up with this piece of work.

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html

Anybody know anything about this(ese) guy(s)?  There are a lot of claims that have been debunked so I'm not there.  Just who are they are?

[Luke Pemberton]

Anybody know anything about this(ese) guy(s)?  There are a lot of claims that have been debunked so I'm not there.

I have no idea who they are, but it's the same old regurgitated rubbish. It's a compendium of Aulis and popular hoax theories. It even has the C-rock, so I'm going to fall about in fits of laughter straight away. The 33 questions, if I can debunk each of those, then it's hardly the holy grail of hoax material.

[bknight]

Anybody know anything about this(ese) guy(s)?  There are a lot of claims that have been debunked so I'm not there.

I have no idea who they are, but it's the same old regurgitated rubbish. It's a compendium of Aulis and popular hoax theories. It even has the C-rock, so I'm going to fall about in fits of laughter straight away. The 33 questions, if I can debunk each of those, then it's hardly the holy grail of hoax material.

I know it looks so "old" nothing new.  Did you see the post:
20)  The water sourced air conditioner backpacks should have produced frequent explosive vapour discharges.  They never did. Would have been good in the Baker thread!

[Peter B]

Thread hijack.
I was looking at the pro-boards archives and ran across a thread that dealt with double recitals.  So I Googled   double recitals and came up with this piece of work.

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html

Anybody know anything about this(ese) guy(s)?  There are a lot of claims that have been debunked so I'm not there.  Just who are they are?

Oh yes, Dave Cosnette (Cosmic Dave as he liked to be known, or Comic Dave as we called him) has a long and amusing history among HBs. For a long time, along with the article you linked, he also had an article about the alien encounters Apollo astronauts had when they went to the Moon. So, yes, he simultaneously promoted the ideas that the astronauts couldn't go to the Moon, and found aliens when they went there. I can't see the astronaut-alien encounter page there with a quick search, so he may have finally realised the two theories were mutually incompatible.

IIRC he visited Cosmoquest and this board, both in earlier incarnations, and generally had his arguments torn to shreds by people like JayUtah.

ETA: I remember debunking most of the 33 questions in around 2002...

[Luke Pemberton]

20)  The water sourced air conditioner backpacks should have produced frequent explosive vapour discharges.  They never did. Would have been good in the Baker thread!

It's Ralph Rene's claim, and I think Baker expects to see vapour discharges the video test he demands, except he won't as (a) he doesn't understand sublimation (b) he hasn't carried out the calculations to validate his claim/expectation.

However, this conversation belongs at Baker's thread, so we need to stop here and keep the discussion of the PLSS at the Baker thread.

[Bob B.]

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure LunarOrbit was not the original owner of this site and hence was never an HB.

Correct, LunarOrbit took over the site from the original owner.  It was the original owner that's the reformed HB.  LunarOrbit has always been on the right side.

[bknight]

Oh yes, Dave Cosnette (Cosmic Dave as he liked to be known, or Comic Dave as we called him) has a long and amusing history among HBs. For a long time, along with the article you linked, he also had an article about the alien encounters Apollo astronauts had when they went to the Moon. So, yes, he simultaneously promoted the ideas that the astronauts couldn't go to the Moon, and found aliens when they went there. I can't see the astronaut-alien encounter page there with a quick search, so he may have finally realised the two theories were mutually incompatible.

IIRC he visited Cosmoquest and this board, both in earlier incarnations, and generally had his arguments torn to shreds by people like JayUtah.

ETA: I remember debunking most of the 33 questions in around 2002...

Being a newbie has a few drawbacks. Thanks

It's Ralph Rene's claim, and I think Baker expects to see vapour discharges the video test he demands, except he won't as (a) he doesn't understand sublimation (b) he hasn't carried out the calculations to validate his claim/expectation.

However, this conversation belongs at Baker's thread, so we need to stop here and keep the discussion of the PLSS at the Baker thread.

I agree and will quit the thread hijack.