Author Topic: Apollo 13  (Read 221401 times)

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #225 on: October 18, 2013, 09:21:26 AM »
The closest you came was in the 1969 Mission Report wherein 'pass rapidly' through the belts was the only mention. This is not 'avoiding the worst of the belts.'


Mr Weisbecker, recently


Let me guess..you didn't bother word-searching the copious documents that you were shown as you couldn't find them.
The power of self-delusion and wilful ignorance, eh?
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline AtomicDog

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #226 on: October 18, 2013, 09:40:07 AM »
Is "Declare victory and flounce" on the Bingo card?
"There is no belief, however foolish, that will not gather its faithful adherents who will defend it to the death." - Isaac Asimov

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #227 on: October 18, 2013, 09:44:48 AM »
Yes, you're right. You've heard the last of me ...

And there was much rejoicing.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #228 on: October 18, 2013, 09:49:44 AM »


Not quite as good a flounce as DAKDAK, so 6/10.
The quality of hoax believers and their flounces is really slipping lately.

"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Peter B

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #229 on: October 18, 2013, 10:22:34 AM »
Yes, you're right. You've heard the last of me but not for the reasons you imply...

To sum up: I asked for a contemporaneous (1969 or earlier) mention anywhere about how 'the worst of the VARB would be avoided.' (Several of you made this claim, words to this effect, and no one disagreed.)

The closest you came was in the 1969 Mission Report wherein 'pass rapidly' through the belts was the only mention. This is not 'avoiding the worst of the belts.'

I'm leaving this thread because I don't need any more reminders of how easy it apparently is to get humans to do what you do here. Whether it's money or MKULTRA or inborn delusion or simple wishful thinking or, most certainly, Evil at work, I'd prefer not to hear any more of it...
I take that to mean you've already got the Apollo rocks issue sorted.

Great. I can't wait to hear it.
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Offline Noldi400

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #230 on: October 18, 2013, 11:31:42 AM »
I'm leaving this thread because I don't need any more reminders of how easy it apparently is to get humans to do what you do here. Whether it's money or MKULTRA or inborn delusion or simple wishful thinking or, most certainly, Evil at work, I'd prefer not to hear any more of it...
Or, just possibly, years of training and actual practical experience.  Not by me, of course, when it comes to astronautics and astrodynamics, but certainly by several here.  I do have my own skill set and knowledge base, however, if you'd care to revisit the hypothermia question.

You're like a Monday morning quarterback demanding to be shown in the team's playbook where it says that the quarterback should attempt to avoid the defender's raised arms when throwing a pass; it's inherent in the process.


"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #231 on: October 18, 2013, 11:46:54 AM »
Yes, you're right. You've heard the last of me but not for the reasons you imply...

Oh, it is very much is for those reasons, as you admit below.  You're only about the fiftieth conspiracy theorist to try this same approach and tactic on this forum and its predecessors.  As you've noticed, your approach is so characteristic we can even talk about the psychology of it with little opposition.  Having gotten a little attention elsewhere, you've convinced yourself of two things:  first, that you know it all; and second, that evil powers are out to get you.  The latter gives rise to belief in widespread conspiracies; the latter wrongly tells you that you have a rational basis for those beliefs.

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The closest you came was in the 1969 Mission Report...

Factually incorrect.  You were given multiple citations to multiple academic and technical studies from multiple fields in and out of the government.  But you'd already told us we'd find nothing, because you -- in your "investigative journalist" persona -- made a cursory, straw-man examination and failed to find anything.  Having thus laid your cards on the table, you have no option now but to fold your hand.  "Gee, I guess you guys were right all along," doesn't appear to be in your vocabulary, as it would be for any rational person.

Quote
I'm leaving this thread because I don't need any more reminders of how easy it apparently is to get humans to do what you do here. Whether it's money or MKULTRA or inborn delusion or simple wishful thinking or, most certainly, Evil at work, I'd prefer not to hear any more of it...

Yeah, that would be the reason.  You cannot stomach facts that disagree with your pre-determined beliefs.  So you ignore the facts and demonize the people who know more about them than you do.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #232 on: October 18, 2013, 11:47:37 AM »
Yes, you're right. You've heard the last of me ...

And there was much rejoicing.

You know he'll be back.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline gillianren

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #233 on: October 18, 2013, 11:53:10 AM »
Is "Declare victory and flounce" on the Bingo card?

I'm pretty sure.  I haven't actually looked at mine, I admit, because I think someone else won before I even joined the thread.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

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Offline Andromeda

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #234 on: October 18, 2013, 12:12:35 PM »
LOL @ "MKULTRA".



I don't think I've ever been described as evil before  :-*
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 12:23:27 PM by Andromeda »
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline Tedward

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #235 on: October 18, 2013, 12:30:18 PM »
Yes, you're right. You've heard the last of me but not for the reasons you imply...

To sum up: I asked for a contemporaneous (1969 or earlier) mention anywhere about how 'the worst of the VARB would be avoided.' (Several of you made this claim, words to this effect, and no one disagreed.)

The closest you came was in the 1969 Mission Report wherein 'pass rapidly' through the belts was the only mention. This is not 'avoiding the worst of the belts.'

I'm leaving this thread because I don't need any more reminders of how easy it apparently is to get humans to do what you do here. Whether it's money or MKULTRA or inborn delusion or simple wishful thinking or, most certainly, Evil at work, I'd prefer not to hear any more of it...

One of the things I love about this place is you can ask questions and some very qualified people will answer. Now you can take this at face value or take it away and go to a library and check it up. Either way you have some input from people who are not giving an armchair opinion and have experience to back it up.

Hows about we start again? I have seen quite a few answers to this in this thread. More than enough to go away and check up. Why avoid those answers? I am able to follow them.

Offline ApolloGnomon

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #236 on: October 18, 2013, 12:48:19 PM »
Quote
To sum up: I asked for a contemporaneous (1969 or earlier) mention anywhere about how 'the worst of the VARB would be avoided.' (Several of you made this claim, words to this effect, and no one disagreed.)

The closest you came was in the 1969 Mission Report wherein 'pass rapidly' through the belts was the only mention. This is not 'avoiding the worst of the belts.'

Just for the sake of discussion, let's assume for a moment that the VAB is a howling maelstrom of radioactive death, and that the astronauts had no choice but to fly through it anyway.
** How does this assumption explain the literal tons of technical documentation and testing for every single piece of flown hardware, down to their underpants?
**  How does it affect our understanding of 800+ lbs of rock and soil samples that have been examined by geologists world wide for the last 40 years without one questioning the veracity of the materials?
** And what about the Baysinger recordings ( http://legacy.jefferson.kctcs.edu/observatory/apollo11/ ) of the Apollo 11 EVA?

Thousands of individual datapoints, all internally and externally consistent, tell a fantastic story about human engineering achievements. But you, like every single HB before you, think you can point to one "smoking gun" detail, totally out of context and with zero factual analysis of the underlying concepts, and somehow this defeats all the externally verifiable facts.

Wasn't your OP about the thermal conditions inside the A13 spacecraft? What happened to that argument?

Offline Mag40

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #237 on: October 18, 2013, 01:26:48 PM »
The closest you came was in the 1969 Mission Report wherein 'pass rapidly' through the belts was the only mention. This is not 'avoiding the worst of the belts.'

So you didn't see the simple stuff that even I can understand? The inclination is the most relevant figure:

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4029/Apollo_18-24_Translunar_Injection.htm

That is avoiding the worst of the belts and noted on every single mission report.

Quote
I'm leaving this thread because I don't need any more reminders of how ignorant I am.

Fixed that for you. On behalf of the lay people though, thanks for this thread. We may learn a few things from the experts around here, it's just a shame that yet another Heiwa clone is incapable of that really simple thing.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #238 on: October 18, 2013, 01:43:36 PM »
Yes, you're right. You've heard the last of me but not for the reasons you imply...

To sum up: I asked for a contemporaneous (1969 or earlier) mention anywhere about how 'the worst of the VARB would be avoided.' (Several of you made this claim, words to this effect, and no one disagreed.)

The closest you came was in the 1969 Mission Report wherein 'pass rapidly' through the belts was the only mention. This is not 'avoiding the worst of the belts.'

I'm leaving this thread because I don't need any more reminders of how easy it apparently is to get humans to do what you do here. Whether it's money or MKULTRA or inborn delusion or simple wishful thinking or, most certainly, Evil at work, I'd prefer not to hear any more of it...


I'm flouncing!

There, fixed that for you!

And thanks heaps. I learned some new stuff in this thread. Pity you are too ignorant to have availed yourself of the opportunity to do likewise!

If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline sts60

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Re: Apollo 13
« Reply #239 on: October 18, 2013, 02:25:54 PM »
To sum up: I asked for a contemporaneous (1969 or earlier) mention anywhere about how 'the worst of the VARB would be avoided.' (Several of you made this claim, words to this effect, and no one disagreed.)
 
No.  Here is exactly what you asked for:
 
"...Therefore, all the Apollo missions must have taken this into account, i.e., the launches timed and the flight trajectories carefully plotted so the astronauts would not be 'dosed.'
...
Therefore there surely are CONTEMPORANEOUS reports/accounts/papers/studies/documents proving this, or at least MENTIONING IT."

 
The closest you came was in the 1969 Mission Report wherein 'pass rapidly' through the belts was the only mention. This is not 'avoiding the worst of the belts.'
 
Factually incorrect. Let me commend to your attention highlights (in bold) of documents I have already cited for you:
 
Quote from: NASA TM-X-2440, Proceedings of the National Symposium on Natural and Manmade Radiation in Space, 1971
On lunar missions, they are encountered in two complete traversals of the radiation belt on translunar and trans-Earth injection. Since the angle of inclination of the plane of the geomagnetic equator to the plane of the coplanar orbits of the Moon and the vehicle around the Earth varies continuously on a daily and monthly cycle, the geomagnetic trajectory through the radiation belt varies from crossing to crossing. Sometimes the trajectory traverses the inner belt more peripherally, sometimes more centrally.
There is also a nice little diagram of the Apollo XII TLI and TEI gemagnetic trajectories.
 
Quote from: The Radiation Environment of Apollo, Interim Report, 1963, Section 3.2, Computer Programs

A computer program has been compiled at Bellcomm to compute the instantaneous and accumulated particle flux intercepted by a spacecraft in orbit or on a given lunar trajectory.  A detailed mathematical description is given in Appendix B.  The program uses the following initial six parameters to specify an orbit: atlitude, longitude, latitude, azimuth, elevation, and velocity magnitude at burnout and it computes the orbit as a function of in-plane angle or true anomaly.  A subroutine then converts geographical coordinates into B,L coordinates.  A second subroutine interrogates the memory and reads out the particle (proton and/or electron) fluxes out of ~1200 B,L boxes and the instantaneous and accumulated fluxes read out.

Quote from: NASA TM-X-54700, Space Radiations: A Compilation and Discussion, 1964
Methods are now under development to determine the optimum trajectories (in terms of dose rates) to be used for various mission profiles.  If this method proves successful, the mission may be made more complicated due to the specification of a path to be followed through the Van Allen zones.

There, in black and white, are three examples directly discussing concerns of Apollo translunar trajectories with regard to the Van Allen belts - in other words, three examples of what you guaranteed we could not find.  And this is just a facile word-search of NTRS and documents I already had on hand; it is not an engineering exercise.
 
Allan, why are you refusing to uphold your guarantee?  And I'm not looking for clever answers from other board members; I really would like Allan to explain why he is apparently so committed to denying the facts presented to him.
 
I'm leaving this thread because I don't need any more reminders of how easy it apparently is to get humans to do what you do here.
 
Allan, that's very disappointing to read.  I thought you were here to learn something.  The above makes it sound like you only came here to confirm your preconceived notions.

What was easy here was for you to get useful information about the Apollo program and spaceflight in general, freely given by people who have accumulated a great deal of knowledge on these subjects.  Instead of learning from it, you are avoiding it.  Why is that?  Are you afraid to challenge your own assumptions?  Do you not like the idea that the same country involved in Vietnam could accomplish this?  Is it a religious thing?  Or what?

Whether it's money
 
Wrong.  I do not get paid for providing information to you, nor to any other hoax believer.
 
or MKULTRA
 
Wrong.  Nothing to do with me.
 
or inborn delusion
 
Wrong.  The same principles that applied to Apollo apply to other space projects - military, civil, and commercial - and each type of which I have worked on.  If I was deluded, I would not be approaching the quarter-century mark in my line of work.
 
or simple wishful thinking
 
Wrong.  I am paid to perform actual space engineering, and have both both the education and experience to back up what I say.  Wishful thinking is not part of my job skill set.
 
or, most certainly, Evil at work,
 
Are you saying that I'm evil for providing you with facts contradicting your claim?  This must be a new definition of "evil" with which I am not familiar.
 
I'd prefer not to hear any more of it...
 
Allan, that's really too bad.  You can still decide to stick around and learn something, if you like.  Or you can close your eyes, stick your fingers in your ears, and shout "La la la I can't hear you".  The latter approach is easier, because it never means having to admit an error, but really won't help you in the long run. 

Personally, I hope you choose the former.


Edited two paragraphs in the "wishful thinking" and "delusion" responses.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 02:47:36 PM by sts60 »