Author Topic: And... where is the pilot?  (Read 49585 times)

Offline ka9q

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Re: And... where is the pilot?
« Reply #75 on: October 21, 2015, 06:32:09 PM »
...I do not see any astronaut at the controls of a spaceship...
Then you are, quite frankly, willfully blind. Those videos show exactly what you asked for, astronauts (and cosmonauts) at the controls of their "spaceships". What more do you want?

"Spaceships" are not race cars, Navy ships or helicopters, so why would you expect them to be controlled in exactly the same ways?

They are more closely related to fixed-wing aircraft, though still not identical, and in fact you'll see air crews doing very similar things. For much of a flight, the cockpit crew of a modern airliner will not have their hands on what you think are "the controls" either. You'll see them talking on the radio or to each other, punching numbers into keypads, reading displays, reviewing flight plans and checklists, and the like.

Computers now do the routine flying of both airliners and manned spacecraft. The pilots take over mainly when close eye/hand coordination is required, e.g., the landing of the shuttle or an airliner, though even many airliners can now automatically perform routine take-offs and landings. At other times the crew is there to make sure everything is configured and working correctly, and to take over if something goes wrong.

Space flight isn't phony just because it doesn't meet your naive, uninformed expectations.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 06:33:53 PM by ka9q »

Offline sts60

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Re: And... where is the pilot?
« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2015, 10:55:28 PM »
Tarkus, you have made three different kinds of errors in this thread.  Others have already pointed these out, but they bear reiteration.

First, you made a source error (identifying video imagery as "film").  Not really a big deal, but it does demonstrate once again your unfamiliarity with the Apollo record.

Second, you asserted that things should be done a certain way for space missions, but you manifestly have no insight into how actual space operations work.  This is, again as already pointed out, the "If I ran the zoo" fallacy.  You have no experiential or factual basis for your assertions of how things "should be done" or "should have been done".  Bluntly speaking, you have no idea what you are talking about, but you presume to tell a group of well-educated laymen and engineers with actual space operations experience (like me) that we are just taking things on faith.  That's arrant nonsense.

Third, of course, is the simple error of fact you made in asserting that in-cabin motion imagery was unavailable from various missions.  That was simply wrong, and everyone here knew that.  You based your claim on this supposed fact, which in reality - quickly demonstrated - was nothing more than your ignorance of the subject.  Therefore, your claim immediately failed because its fundamental premise was wrong.

Please explain if being wrong like this ever causes you to reconsider your position, and if not, why anyone should expend any effort in trying to educate you.

You contradict when they say that Apollo was the fact and best documented history on the one hand are the films, audio as well (why astronauts sound so bad from space? Nasal and metallic voice because they are "far away" ?)

Oh, dear.  You didn't answer my question.

You claimed that there was no imagery of crews "driving" their spaceships.  Multiple examples were promptly shown to you, which made me ask you if you ever reconsider your position, given the many errors you make concerning Apollo.

Instead of answering my question, you simply repeated your second error, the "if I ran the zoo" fallacy, but added an irrelevant complaint about sound quality.  This is another variant - we'll call it the "if I engineered the zoo" fallacy.  The problem is, you simply don't know anything about spaceflight in general, nor about spacecraft communications in particular.  You're just waving your hands that things should be a certain way, but you have no basis for it other than your demonstrably ignorant opinion.

and secondly the documents with information, but most of what is said there is not proven,

Handwaving.  You can't simply deny what's in the documentation and expect anyone to take you seriously.  Not only do you clearly not understand what's in the documentation, you aren't even aware of the existence of the vast majority of it.

you will read that data with reverence produced in his mind the authority that has been written, but history is full of lies and science has often complicit in the lies promoted by the government, reasons for mistrust abound.

Appealing to general conspiracism won't save you.  Nor will attempting to frame those who disagree with you as gullible believers uncritically accepting what they are told by NASA.   The regulars here are the ones finding and reporting the evidence, and pulling it apart and analyzing it and correcting each other.  You, on the other hand, Google up images and factoids from random sources, but are unable to construct a coherent, let alone factual, narrative with them.

And, by the way, I've worked with people who made Mercury and Gemini and Apollo happen.  I'm talking about hard-nosed engineers who would hand you your head if you played fast and loose with the facts.  I'm not in their league, but I can, and try to, apply that same kind of mindset in my job.  And yes, space flight is my business; I don't have to just believe or disbelieve.

And of course those who distrust Apollo, observe critically graphic evidence, that's what it is.

I have seen no evidence of critical analysis from committed Apollo hoax believers.  Critical analysis requires being able to admit error.  Neither you nor any of the conspiracists you crib from demonstrate the ability or willingness to do so.

And not only the evidence but the absence of evidence, because there is no verifiable evidence of piloting a spaceship ... this is serious.

No, it's risible.  You said there was no evidence.  You were provided with evidence.  Now, you're half-denying it exists, and half-handwaving that it's somehow wrong or untrustworthy, but once again, you have nothing but your own ignorant opinion to back it up.

I'm not insulting you by calling you ignorant about space flight in general and Apollo in particular.  We're all ignorant about something.  But you refuse to amend, or even acknowledge, your ignorance.  So, I return to the questions asked above:

Given your numerous errors, why do you never reconsider your position?

And why, given your unwillingness and/or inability to correct or even acknowledge your mistakes, should anybody keep trying to educate you?

I'm not saying this to insult you.  I'm simply trying to get you to think about what you're doing, rather than just keep digging in.

Offline tarkus

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Re: And... where is the pilot?
« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2015, 11:02:55 PM »
When there was good line of sight for the antennas the voice were pretty clear.  sometimes MCC over road the conversations but that was delay.  The voices don't seem metallic or nasal to me.
All astronauts sound exactly the same, impossible to distinguish the voice of Armstrong of Lowell or Cernan, but now say that I am deaf ... as usual.

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please provide evidence of lies or complicity or lying, not just your imagination
Bazant's paper published just two days after 9/11, while all the steel was sent to melt scrap ... the academic community of engineers and architects who work defending this garbage has no traces of moral stature.

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You believe you are critical, I believe you are ignorant of the facts presented by others and refuse to accept those documented by others
We think differently to you is more important to film the astronauts playing golf driving their spaceships, for me it's the opposite, we can not agree to this.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: And... where is the pilot?
« Reply #78 on: October 21, 2015, 11:12:38 PM »
All astronauts sound exactly the same, impossible to distinguish the voice of Armstrong of Lowell or Cernan, but now say that I am deaf ... as usual.

You whine too much.  Yes, to some people all the astronauts sound the same.  Just like to some others, all baseball players sound the same.  And to yet others, all NPR correspondents sound the same.  Yet to the people immersed in the information from those various fields, there is a distinct difference.  I know what Neil Armstrong sounds like.  If you don't, it literally is your problem.  And you need to stop whining about people pointing out your obvious and glaring deficiency.  Your particular combination of ignorance and arrogance is not the status quo.

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... the academic community of engineers and architects who work defending this garbage has no traces of moral stature.

Again, calling all legitimate practitioners of a field liars and scoundrels is not a convincing argument.

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...for me it's the opposite, we can not agree to this.

And if your ill-informed opinion mattered, this would mean something.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: And... where is the pilot?
« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2015, 12:25:26 AM »
We think differently to you is more important to film the astronauts playing golf driving their spaceships, for me it's the opposite, we can not agree to this.

There's much more to the Apollo record than a recording of that golf shot. Much more.
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Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: And... where is the pilot?
« Reply #80 on: October 22, 2015, 02:16:40 AM »
We think differently to you is more important to film the astronauts playing golf driving their spaceships, for me it's the opposite, we can not agree to this.

I think. You don't.

I am prepared to sit through hours of lunar surface footage, look at what is there, analyse it, discuss it and think about it..

You have read somewhere that someone played golf and think that a) this is the same as 18 holes with a full set of clubs and b) this is the only thing people who defend Apollo are interested in.

Wrong on all counts.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: And... where is the pilot?
« Reply #81 on: October 22, 2015, 02:48:44 AM »
All astronauts sound exactly the same, impossible to distinguish the voice of Armstrong of Lowell or Cernan, but now say that I am deaf ... as usual.

Actually they don't. Perhaps a hearing test along with a sight test is called for?  ::)
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: And... where is the pilot?
« Reply #82 on: October 22, 2015, 03:28:02 AM »
Deflects the subject

No, it is delving into the details of the subject. How big will any object appear to be if you move twice as far away from it?

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I already answered that in astronomy can not do the trick of larger planets in the background while the size of the one in the foreground,

You did not answer the question I put to you, you made a sweeping (and false) statement. What is it about astronomy that makes it impossible for a planet to appear larger than its moon even when the moon is in front of the planet? Do Jupiter's moons block the view of Jupiter? If not, why should Earth's moon block the view of Earth?

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you refuse remains to accept it is more due to their own foolishness than any other cause.

I refuse to accept it because i know mathematically and with my own eyes that your statement is false. Your inability to prove your statement instead of just repeating it is the issue here.

So, if Earth appears 2 degrees wide from 400,000 km, how large will it appear from 800,000 km, or how much smaller will it look if you double the distance of observer? You already made a statement about the size of the Earth that used numerical values, so why can't you follow through the argument with more numerical values and proofs?
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Offline ineluki

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Re: And... where is the pilot?
« Reply #83 on: October 22, 2015, 05:17:43 AM »
All astronauts sound exactly the same, impossible to distinguish the voice of Armstrong of Lowell or Cernan, but now say that I am deaf ... as usual.

As this seems to be a problem that only occurs for you, hearing problems on your side  would seem the most likely explanation.

Just to test a personal hypothesis could you tell me the capital of France?

Offline ka9q

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Re: And... where is the pilot?
« Reply #84 on: October 22, 2015, 05:30:10 AM »
All astronauts sound exactly the same, impossible to distinguish the voice of Armstrong of Lowell or Cernan, but now say that I am deaf ... as usual.
I guess you are. With just a little practice I can easily distinguish the three astronauts in any Apollo mission.

The Apollo voice communication system is not much different from that still used in aviation. Fidelity is not as important as intelligibility, so voice is bandwidth-limited to eliminate high and low frequencies and compressed and clipped to make it sound loud in the presence of background noise.

Offline Allan F

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Re: And... where is the pilot?
« Reply #85 on: October 22, 2015, 05:35:11 AM »
driving their spaceships

Tarkus, how do you think somebody "drives" a spaceship?

Let me tell you how I think it was done:

At liftoff, the astronauts were tied down tight, waiting for the automated countdown to start the show. They had a few switches to press, measurements to read back, but basically, the computers did the work. There was no hand steering during liftoff. Once in orbit, they looked at the computer, determined if the numbers were correct. Then they waited for the right moment, and the computer started the engine, accelerating the spacecraft towards the moon. After the engine had done it's job, it was discarded. Just before that, there wass HANDFLYING of the spacecraft. The CMP moved the spacecraft forward in relation to the booster. Then he turned it around and moved back towards the booster until he docked with the LM. So we have perhaps an hour of intense, mission critical activity where the astronauts are busy with very tight maneuvering - who should film it? Why should they film it? What would a film show, other than the astronauts sitting in their couches, occasionally flipping switches, and one moving a hand controller very carefully. Not much to see, is there?

Along the way, the astronauts looked at the computer now and then, and determineed if the numbers are correct. If not, they sat down in their couches, and then the computer pointed the spacecraft in the desired direction, and started the engine for a few seconds. There was no hand-flying here. Then they were at the moon. They were passing behind the moon, and they needed to brake the spacecraft so they could get info orbit. The computer pointed the spacecraft - and started the engine for a predetermined time. NO handflying here. Then they were in orbit.

After transferring two astronauts to the LM, the LM and CSM separated. HANDFLYING the LM, they positioned themselves so the CSM pilot could inspect the LM, giving it the goahead for a landing. Then they started the computer, and it flied the spacecraft until it was close to the ground. Just before touchdown, the commander assumed manual control, and HANDFLIED the LM to a safe landing. At most, a minute or two of handflying, where he was intensely concentrated, and his LMP had his nose in the instruments ensuring the commander had all the information he needed to ensure a safe landing. Who should film it? What would it show?

Now on the moon, they have to get back up to lunar orbit. They stood at their posts, held in place by restraints, and the computer flew the ascent stage all the way to orbit. The computer flew the craft all the way up to the rendezvous. Then the commander assumed control, and handflew the LM to a docking with the CSM. After transfer back to the CSM, the LM was discarded, and the computer pointed the CSM in the correct direction and fired the engine to get them started on the return. Along the way, the computer corrected the trajectory now and then - but the handflying was over. All the rest was done by computer. And inertia. And gravity.

So on an Apollo mission, the handflying was only done when there was exact maneuvering involved close to another body. Most of the time, they were just moving like a bullet fired from a gun - no propulsion, no steering - and no handflying necessary. They could move around in the CM, sleep, eat, take pictures - basically do a lot of things not relating to steering the spacecraft. What you fail to understand is perhaps that space is EMPTY. There is no need to sit and look out for trees and pedestrians like in a car - or signals like in a train. Or bad weather like in an aircraft. There is nothing there - nothing visible anyway. If there was something dangerous they would need to avoid, it would move so fast, they could not see it before they were dead.


Why would they film the "driving" of the spacecraft? Would it not be more appropriate to DO THE MISSION instead of faffing about with a camera, when it wasn't needed?
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Offline Apollo 957

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Re: And... where is the pilot?
« Reply #86 on: October 22, 2015, 06:01:55 AM »
All astronauts sound exactly the same, impossible to distinguish the voice of Armstrong of Lowell or Cernan, but now say that I am deaf ... as usual.

So? This proves nothing, other than to tell us something about you. I know people who can't tell an Alto from a Tenor saxophone. So what?

Bazant's paper published just two days after 9/11, while all the steel was sent to melt scrap ... the academic community of engineers and architects who work defending this garbage has no traces of moral stature.

Nothing to do with Apollo at all.

We think differently to you is more important to film the astronauts playing golf driving their spaceships, for me it's the opposite, we can not agree to this.

One astronaut hit one golf ball with one implement converted to act as a golf club. This lasted no more than a couple of minutes. It didn't dominate the missions, it wasn't the focus of any of the missions, it was merely an amusing diversion.

The astronauts took cassette players along for some background music along the way. Are you going to assert that they were on vacation, and not working, because of this?

Offline bknight

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Re: And... where is the pilot?
« Reply #87 on: October 22, 2015, 07:26:31 AM »

So? This proves nothing, other than to tell us something about you. I know people who can't tell an Alto from a Tenor saxophone. So what?

Nothing to do with Apollo at all.

We think differently to you is more important to film the astronauts playing golf driving their spaceships, for me it's the opposite, we can not agree to this.

One astronaut hit one golf ball with one implement converted to act as a golf club. This lasted no more than a couple of minutes. It didn't dominate the missions, it wasn't the focus of any of the missions, it was merely an amusing diversion.

The astronauts took cassette players along for some background music along the way. Are you going to assert that they were on vacation, and not working, because of this?
They were men, who like to joke cut up just like a lot of adults.  NASA didn't turn a deaf ear to allow personal requests.
EDIT: Spelling
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 08:08:01 AM by bknight »
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Offline ineluki

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Re: And... where is the pilot?
« Reply #88 on: October 22, 2015, 07:34:09 AM »
Tarkus, how do you think somebody "drives" a spaceship?

I guess in the strange world which tarkus claims to inhibit it should look more like this

(F1 cockpit cam: See the driver at work)

Offline bknight

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Re: And... where is the pilot?
« Reply #89 on: October 22, 2015, 08:09:55 AM »
Tarkus, how do you think somebody "drives" a spaceship?

I guess in the strange world which tarkus claims to inhibit it should look more like this

(F1 cockpit cam: See the driver at work)
GoPro wasn't in existence in the 60's-70's
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan