Author Topic: Questions needing answers  (Read 194583 times)

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Questions needing answers
« Reply #285 on: February 03, 2016, 11:10:52 AM »
The first one looks CGI.

Prove it is, then.  You're choosing simply to disbelieve any and all evidence of any kind that disputes your preconceptions.  How is that not simply a religion -- and a bad one at that?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline tradosaurus

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Re: Questions needing answers
« Reply #286 on: February 03, 2016, 11:14:45 AM »
try adhering water to a spinning ball at 1,000 mph.

What about a spinning ball that spins at one revolution every 24 hours? For that's the same as the Earth, isn't it?

Oh, no - you don't believe in that. So you want to disprove it by spinning a ball at "1000 mph", but you don't believe it's actually spinning, so  ..... what does that do to your proof?

EDIT - Oops, sorry, just seen the request to stop feeding FE to him, which came after the quote above.

So the earth spinning at 1,000 mph (faster than the speed of sound) is not the same as spinning a basketball at 1,000 mph?  The speeds are the same. 
Also how does the fact if one moved north or south of the equator on the fictitious rotating globe his speed would decrease until it reached zero at the north  or south pole?  Why doesn't that person feel the change in speed?  Hint; he doesn't because we experience a flat and unmoving earth.
NASA:  Faking space for over 50 years.

Offline tradosaurus

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Re: Questions needing answers
« Reply #287 on: February 03, 2016, 11:15:37 AM »
The first one looks CGI.

Prove it is, then.  You're choosing simply to disbelieve any and all evidence of any kind that disputes your preconceptions.  How is that not simply a religion -- and a bad one at that?

Prove my picture is CGI.  I posted it and said it was real.  I would feel offended if you didn't believe me.   ;)   
Good luck.
NASA:  Faking space for over 50 years.

Offline raven

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Re: Questions needing answers
« Reply #288 on: February 03, 2016, 11:43:02 AM »
The first one looks CGI.

Prove it is, then.  You're choosing simply to disbelieve any and all evidence of any kind that disputes your preconceptions.  How is that not simply a religion -- and a bad one at that?

Prove my picture is CGI.  I posted it and said it was real.  I would feel offended if you didn't believe me.   ;)   
Good luck.
Simple, I found it here (scroll once on the horizontal row of images). The fact the image file is called 'gravity' and you hotlinked it, without permission no doubt, from a website called www.dcfilmdom.com is also a big damn hint. Here's the review with the same frame on the same website.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 11:46:50 AM by raven »

Offline darren r

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Re: Questions needing answers
« Reply #289 on: February 03, 2016, 11:46:19 AM »

Prove my picture is CGI.  I posted it and said it was real.  I would feel offended if you didn't believe me.   ;)   
Good luck.

On the one hand, I doubt anyone cares if you're offended by our disbelief. You're the one making the claim that it's you, it's up to you to prove it.

On the other hand, the picture you posted shows both a curved horizon and a spacecraft in space, both of which you claim is impossible. So you're clearly not telling the truth about something.
" I went to the God D**n Moon!" Byng Gordon, 8th man on the Moon.

Offline Chew

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Re: Questions needing answers
« Reply #290 on: February 03, 2016, 11:51:00 AM »
So the earth spinning at 1,000 mph (faster than the speed of sound) is not the same as spinning a basketball at 1,000 mph?

[David Attenborough voice] And here we see the pure unbridled stupidity of the typical flat earther. With absolutely no spatial cognitive skills to speak of, they quickly succumb to the most feeble-minded arguments imaginable.

Offline Apollo 957

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Re: Questions needing answers
« Reply #291 on: February 03, 2016, 12:02:42 PM »
So the earth spinning at 1,000 mph (faster than the speed of sound) is not the same as spinning a basketball at 1,000 mph?  The speeds are the same. 
Also how does the fact if one moved north or south of the equator on the fictitious rotating globe his speed would decrease until it reached zero at the north  or south pole?  Why doesn't that person feel the change in speed?  Hint; he doesn't because we experience a flat and unmoving earth.

I'll post a reply at the Flat Earth thread.

Offline frenat

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Re: Questions needing answers
« Reply #292 on: February 03, 2016, 12:08:47 PM »
try adhering water to a spinning ball at 1,000 mph.

What about a spinning ball that spins at one revolution every 24 hours? For that's the same as the Earth, isn't it?

Oh, no - you don't believe in that. So you want to disprove it by spinning a ball at "1000 mph", but you don't believe it's actually spinning, so  ..... what does that do to your proof?

EDIT - Oops, sorry, just seen the request to stop feeding FE to him, which came after the quote above.

So the earth spinning at 1,000 mph (faster than the speed of sound) is not the same as spinning a basketball at 1,000 mph?  The speeds are the same. 
No it is not.  What is significant is the rate of rotation, not the speed.  The rate is 1 revolution per 24 hours.

Also how does the fact if one moved north or south of the equator on the fictitious rotating globe his speed would decrease until it reached zero at the north  or south pole?  Why doesn't that person feel the change in speed?  Hint; he doesn't because we experience a flat and unmoving earth.
From a max of 1 revolution per day to zero.  not much of a change.  Or if you prefer centrifugal force, it is a max of 0.23% to zero.  Still not much of a change.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Questions needing answers
« Reply #293 on: February 03, 2016, 12:11:06 PM »
Yes, Jay... I knew that already.

Yes, I figured you did.  Sorry for the non-answer; I was winding down for the night.

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What I don't know is, how were these things designed/assembled/packed/created so that they operated the way that they did.

I can't give you specifics about how I learned about parachute design.  It's one of those things that's too far back to remember specific sources, although I like to think I retained all the knowledge.  That said, the Preliminary Mission Report for Apollo 15 might prove helpful.  As you may recall, one of their parachutes collapsed because the RCS safing procedure cut one of the reefing lines.  Because the RCS fuel is toxic, as much of it as possible is burned off during the descent once it's no longer useful for control.  This requires burning all the jets until the fuel is exhausted, leaving only a residue.  One of the jets impinged on a reefing line and cut it.

As an aside, this is a great example of failure in integration engineering and testing.  The RCS and Earth Landing System were considered "orthogonal" systems in that one had nothing to do with the other -- supposedly.  The team that designed the  ELS is thinking about aerodynamics and structural mechanics.  Aerodynamics because the center of drag is computed by knowing the attach points for the suspension lines.  The parachute exerts its drag at those points, and that in turn determines how the spacecraft will orient itself under the drag load.  Conversely the drag has to be communicated safely to the structure via those attach points.  They aren't thinking about RCS, because that's not the part of the mission they deal with.  They just sit patiently until the last ten minutes.

Similarly, the RCS team is thinking about optimal jet placement.  But most importantly, when the CM drogue deploys, their job is done.  They aren't nominally responsible for anything that happens beyond that point.  The integration engineers and testing team are supposed to think at a higher level and investigate the interactions between systems that are well designed individually to work.  That's one of several examples from space engineering that I use when I teach workshops on design engineering and project management.

But I digress.  The report has a brief description of the Apollo mechanism.

The science of parachutes is pretty straightforward.  You need materials with considerable and predictable tensile strength and low mass, and methods of reliably distributing tension to the rim.  Those distribution networks incidentally offer the advantage of stopping rips.  Another way of mitigating the tension is the ribboning method, which cuts holes or slits in the canopy to let some of the air through.  Materials science governs most of what we consider innovative in parachute design.

The idea of variations in the canopy aperture producing different degrees of drag is as old as parachuting itself.  In the early 1900s practitioners were able to measure its effect also on canopy tension.  That was when the bright idea emerged that variable-drag parachutes might be a useful thing.  I can only remember two types of reefing mechanisms off the top of my head:  the ring method and the skirt method.

The ring method uses a frangible or detachable ring around the suspenders near the aperture.  This forms an apex far above the risers or hoist point and keeps the aperture closed.  Via various release mechanisms, the ring is detached at the right time and the parachute opens fully.

The skirt method is far more common.  Rather than attach the suspenders at a single point on the canopy rim, you run it through an eyelet and then along several adjacent eyelets and then back down to the hoist point.  Interleaving this arrangement around the rim allows you vary the circumference of the aperture by taking in or paying out suspenders.  The modern variation on that method separates reefing lines from suspenders so that you don't have the drag tension on the reefing lines.  To mimic the one-time reef-open behavior of the ring method, the reefing lines are initially regulated to a short fixed length by a frangible or pyrotechnic restraint.  At the appropriate time this restraint is fired and the line pays out to longer fixed length.

In practice, any automatic method of reeling will serve as the actuator for a controllable reef.  The rest becomes straightforward control-system design.  Any number of inputs (ram air pressure, barometric altitude, radar altitude, timers, manual control) can be translated into commands to an addressable winch.  These days such things are quite sophisticated and very reliable.  For safety nets in fall applications we actually use a constant-tension digitally addressable winch.  It will pay out line under load in order to maintain a constant tension.  Control systems can be as simple as relay-based combinatorial logic (i.e., the reef cutter signal is just a combination of sensor outputs), or as sophisticated as a full PID controller (equivalent to full-fledged airplane flight control).

Packing the chute is an art.  Which is to say, there's a science to it, but also great skill in executing it.  The big problem, as you've probably guessed, is avoiding everything getting all tangled up during deployment.  The basic element of the art is the accordion pleat.  Rather than coiled, the lines are laid out side-by-side on the ground, then carefully serpentined so as to produce a bulk of cord that can be pulled from one end without a loop forming around the standing mass of line.  Similarly for the canopy fabric.  At the very end is the pilot chute, which pulls at the top of the canopy and unfolds it from the package.  This method appeals to common sense, but was worked out through trial and (sometimes fatal) error.

The secondary problem is going instantly from fully confined to fully free.  You don't want everything to have to come through an opening in the packaging such that some of it might get hung up.  Engineering has a whole bunch of methods for instantly and simultaneously "failing" all the seams in a container.

As you can guess, the skill required to pack parachutes and the need (in the military) to provide braking chutes for each flight of some aircraft led to the notion of componentized parachute packages.  As part of preparing the aircraft for flight, the ground crew installs a pre-packaged parachute assembly.  After use, the assemblies are removed and sent to a specialized shop for repacking.

Wind tunnel testing has been the mainstay of investigating behavior in parachutes.  As with much engineering, you learn a lot just by trying it and seeing how it behaves.

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What I'm obliquely referencing is some documentary I may or may not correctly recall seeing when I was a pre-teen...

I sympathize.  I saw a film when I was young called Pack Your Own Chute.  (It's searchable on YouTube.)  While it got me interested in parachutes and how they work, the film itself tells very little of the story.

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Something that specifically dealt with recovery systems, and how the future shuttle would not need them. I'd like to have my memory refreshed, but 35 years is a long time.

If it's specifically about the shuttle, I can help you look around.  Because of the STS's high landing speed, runway braking isn't generally sufficient.  Large airframes stretch our skill at brake design.  We use multiple friction layers and so forth, but the problem is often literally where the rubber meets the road.  Early in the shuttle program they experimented with different tire designs and different runway surfacing methods to provide enough grip without risking shredding the tires.  While especially acute for STS, it was a problem all through the early jet age for high-performance military jets.  They just couldn't get enough grip on the runway to slow down.  Modern airliners, as you've seen, not only use reversible thrust but they deploy their spoilers automatically to allow the full weight of the airframe to ride on the wheels and also provide additional down force.

I think the most exciting thing (at least for space) is the combination parachute and retro rocket method.  This requires less reefing from the parachute because it allows a faster descent rate until just before landing, when rockets at the riser ring fire at the very last second to apply a smooth terminal deceleration.

Here is the Apollo 15 mission report.  http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/ap15mr.pdf  The relevant section begins on PDF page 187.

This is the Apollo Experience Report on the Earth Landing System, including the parachutes.  http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19740003586.pdf  It goes into substantial detail about Apollo's parachutes.  And in general, the AERs are a very good source of technical information on all aspects of Apollo design and operation.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Questions needing answers
« Reply #294 on: February 03, 2016, 12:12:41 PM »
Prove my picture is CGI.  I posted it and said it was real.  I would feel offended if you didn't believe me.   ;)

Offense isn't a factor.  You're simply making claims you refuse to substantiate, yet somehow expecting everyone to take you seriously.  We're not offended; we're laughing at you.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Questions needing answers
« Reply #295 on: February 03, 2016, 12:14:33 PM »
So the earth spinning at 1,000 mph (faster than the speed of sound) is not the same as spinning a basketball at 1,000 mph?  The speeds are the same.

No they aren't.  Since you don't believe in Newtonian dynamics I won't attempt to explain to you the difference between angular velocity and linear velocity.  I doubt you're smart enough to understand it anyway.  Suffice it to say, those concepts literally govern everything in your observable world and they don't care whether you believe in them or not.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline bknight

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Re: Questions needing answers
« Reply #296 on: February 03, 2016, 12:38:14 PM »
So the earth spinning at 1,000 mph (faster than the speed of sound) is not the same as spinning a basketball at 1,000 mph?  The speeds are the same.

No they aren't.  Since you don't believe in Newtonian dynamics I won't attempt to explain to you the difference between angular velocity and linear velocity.  I doubt you're smart enough to understand it anyway.  Suffice it to say, those concepts literally govern everything in your observable world and they don't care whether you believe in them or not.
Additionally his adolescent understanding of dynamics, more or less prove to me he either didn't graduate with a degree OR he passed with very high curve.
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Offline Apollo 957

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Re: Questions needing answers
« Reply #297 on: February 03, 2016, 12:39:11 PM »
The first one looks CGI.

Tell us all, then, how you distinguish CGI from a conventional digital photo that would come from a domestic camera?

I'm sure the author of the post with the photo can tell us what kind of camera it was taken on. How would you distinguish a digital photo from that camera from CGI?


Offline Cat Not Included

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Re: Questions needing answers
« Reply #298 on: February 03, 2016, 12:44:37 PM »
Sorry, not taking NASA word for it.  30" hmmmm?  I wonder how they fit through this size of hole with a space suit?  Try this; draw a 30" line on your driveway (in chalk) and just imagine trying to fit through this diameter. 
But given that this was all faked in a studio somewhere I guess it doesn't really matter now does it?
Your argument here is truly absurd. Even if it WAS all faked in a studio, the actors STILL would have needed to have physically fit through the openings.
The quote "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" very clearly predates personal computers.

Offline Cat Not Included

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Re: Questions needing answers
« Reply #299 on: February 03, 2016, 01:02:55 PM »
I really could care less whether you believe I'm an engineer or not.  My diploma says otherwise.  But I've listened to many educated idiots such as Neil Tyson and believe me I'm not impressed.  Scientists today are nothing more than modern day magicians and shamans who weave their spells with high level math that only they can understand. 
Whoa there bucko. I said it was unreasonable for people to ask to see your diploma, but if YOU want anyone to give any credit to your education, that's on YOU to prove. There's ample evidence you are not an engineer, such as characterizing science and math that's at a high school level as "high level math that only they can understand".

Indeed, were I to actually take everything you say as being honest and reflective of critical thinking on  your part, I would have to assume that you are mostly likely a somewhat clever bot that replies in an ELIZA like fashion to statements, as you seem literally completely ignorant of basic observable properties of the physical world.
The quote "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" very clearly predates personal computers.