Author Topic: Trump will win?  (Read 94742 times)

Offline Glom

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #105 on: November 12, 2016, 02:58:58 PM »
Oh no. We're becoming the Internet.

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #106 on: November 12, 2016, 02:59:51 PM »
It's a mystery to me how anyone could see Trump as the ideal candidate. Let's say you're fully committed to the Republican party by default. You had 7 or 8 people running for the Republican nomination who all had fixing the economy as their top goal. Why the hell would anyone choose the one candidate that is a blatant racist/sexist pig?

That's why I was "anybody but Trump" during the primary.  In the Ohio primary I voted for John Kasich because I thought that was the best way to deny Trump Ohio's delegates.

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No, what is shortsighted is focusing solely on short term economic benefits while ignoring the long term consequences of Trump's presidency.

I think the long term negative consequences of a Trump presidency are nil.  Citing all the things that Trump could do I think is just fear mongering because I don't think any of it is going to happen.  Our system of government has checks and balances just for that purpose.

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And frankly, I'm tired of hearing republicans whine about how terrible the economy has been under Obama. Take a look at the numbers. At it's peak, the Dow Jones was I think just over 14,000 during George W. Bush's presidency (it was under 10,000 for most of that time though). Under Obama, it recovered from a major recession that started before he took office, and is now over 18,000. Unemployment is lower now than it ever was during Bush's two terms.

The stock market is not the economy.  GDP growth has been dismal.  The labor force participation rate is lower now than it was when Obama took office.  Mean household income is also down.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 03:05:44 PM by Bob B. »

Offline Obviousman

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #107 on: November 12, 2016, 04:34:29 PM »
I think they are all valid comments. He won the election fairly. He said outrageous things but let's see how he acts during his term; we can't deny him the chance to be a good President.... or to validate concerns about him.

Offline Glom

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #108 on: November 12, 2016, 06:11:35 PM »
The President-Elect had already started to moderate his rhetoric. We'll see how this plays out.

From my perspective as a Briton who has just started in the defence industry, I see these things.
American liberals can no longer look down their noses at us over Brexit.
The UK is now the preeminent force for defence on our fair continent if the President-Elect proves as isolationist as he has implied, which strengthens our hand in Brexit negotiations.
With Europe needing to be more responsible for its own defence, it is better for my employer.
This means that America has just let us off the hook. God bless the USA with its Louisiana Purchase and Mexican Cession.

Anyway, I hope this doesn't affect us at Apollohoax. Bob is our number 2 debunker after Jay. LunarOrbit is our genial host. It's nice that we can discuss things unlike at CosmoBAUT, but lets not let our political differences destroy our little club here.

Btw, I've been singing "With glowing hearts we see thee rise the true North strong and free" since the summer. This has been an eventful year.

Offline Peter B

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #109 on: November 12, 2016, 07:07:52 PM »
...I also believe that, when all is said and done, Trump's pro-growth agenda will do more for minorities than the polices of Hillary Clinton.  What minorities and the middle class needs more of than anything else is good paying jobs... {sorry, editing pedant}

I hope you're right.

On the one hand I've heard him talk about lots of spending on infrastructure as a way of kick-starting the economy.

On the other hand I'd like to see how his economic measures do something other than encourage company directors to spend the tax cuts on increased dividends to shareholders and bonuses to themselves.
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #110 on: November 12, 2016, 10:06:43 PM »
That's why I was "anybody but Trump" during the primary.  In the Ohio primary I voted for John Kasich because I thought that was the best way to deny Trump Ohio's delegates.

John Kasich would have been my choice as well. He seems to be honest, and has more integrity than the other Republican candidates. He didn't act like Trump was Satan during the primaries and then his best friend during the election campaign like Ted Cruz and Chris Christie did.

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I think the long term negative consequences of a Trump presidency are nil.

I hope you're right, Bob, but I find that extremely difficult to believe. As I've said, he has already started making moves that indicate that he will follow through with some of the promises that scare me most, like tapping a climate change denier to head his transition team for the EPA, or an oil tycoon for the Secretary of the Interior.

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Citing all the things that Trump could do I think is just fear mongering because I don't think any of it is going to happen.

This why I don't understand your point of view, or the one expressed by bknight. If a politician promises to do something great I'm skeptical (but hopeful) that they will actually do it. If they promise to do something terrible I assume they will find a way to make it happen. I'm not going to vote for someone that promises to do terrible things and assume that it's all just an act or that the checks and balances will prevent it.

Why would I vote for someone who puts on an act during the campaign anyway? Especially if the character he is portraying is rude and beligerant. I'm selecting a President, not an actor to play the villain in a movie.

Republicans and right wing media fear mongered for 8 years. I'm still waiting for Obama to take away everyone's guns and declare himself "President for Life". He still hasn't forced everyone to convert to Islam either.

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Our system of government has checks and balances just for that purpose.

But why would you take that chance? Why let it get to the point where you have to rely on those checks and balances to save the day? It's like knowingly hiring a pyromaniac and saying "don't worry, our building has a good fire supression system". It's safer to just not hire him in the first place. The first line of defence are the voters.

If the "checks and balances" (the House, Senate, and Supreme Court) are all on Trump's side, what happens then? Besides, from what I understand, some of the things he is promising to do can be done unilaterally. The EPA was created with an executive order and can be shutdown with one. He doesn't need the approval of the House or Senate. 

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The stock market is not the economy.

It's a very important part though. People depend on it for their retirement. And I think it's a pretty good indicator of investor confidence in the leadership of the country.

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GDP growth has been dismal.  The labor force participation rate is lower now than it was when Obama took office.  Mean household income is also down.

I think the President has less impact on those things. He can't force other countries to import more of your products, especially if their economy is doing worse than yours. He can't force people to work, and he can't control the wages that companies pay. He can't force companies to hire more full time employees than part time.

Many of the economic problems are the result of decisions made by CEOs, not the President. The President's influence on those kinds of decisions is limited. And since Trump is a CEO himself, I would expect him to side with other CEOs, not with their employees.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 10:36:58 PM by LunarOrbit »
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Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #111 on: November 12, 2016, 10:08:47 PM »
I think they are all valid comments. He won the election fairly. He said outrageous things but let's see how he acts during his term; we can't deny him the chance to be a good President.... or to validate concerns about him.

Believe me, I've never wanted to be wrong about something more than I do right now. I sincerely hope that Donald Trump is a good President, and that everyone benefits not just his rich white male friends.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #112 on: November 12, 2016, 10:22:30 PM »
Anyway, I hope this doesn't affect us at Apollohoax. Bob is our number 2 debunker after Jay. LunarOrbit is our genial host. It's nice that we can discuss things unlike at CosmoBAUT, but lets not let our political differences destroy our little club here.

I just want to be clear that I'm not angry at Bob or anyone else here that voted for Trump, and I would certainly never punish anyone for having differing political views than mine. My anger is with Trump and his inner circle.

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Btw, I've been singing "With glowing hearts we see thee rise the true North strong and free" since the summer. This has been an eventful year.

If you're interested in emmigrating here you might want to hurry to avoid the long lines. I'm not sure if our immigration website is working again yet.

I'm sure we will be opening more refugee camps for scared American expats soon. Maybe they can get a "Welcome to Canada" briefing from some of the Syrian refugees we've taken in.

Some of my own ancestors fled to Canada as "United Empire Loyalists" during the war for independence. lol
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 10:51:24 PM by LunarOrbit »
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #113 on: November 13, 2016, 12:05:01 AM »
If the "checks and balances" (the House, Senate, and Supreme Court) are all on Trump's side, what happens then?

If the republican house and senate are on board with it, then it is probably something I'm on board with as well.  Although I think Trump is a jackass, I actually agree with much of what he has said.  I just think he went over the top with some of his campaign rhetoric.  For instance, I don't agree with "gutting" the EPA, but I don't have a problem with rolling back regulations if they are found to be excessively burdensome.  And I certainly don't agree with banning all Muslims from entering the country, but I do believe we should be extremely rigorous in our vetting (I'd prefer to err on the side of the safety of our own citizens).  I also don't agree with rounding up and deporting 10 million illegal aliens (or whatever the number is), but I do believe that illegals who have committed crimes in this country should be deported.  And I don't know if we need a wall or not, but I do feel strongly that we need to secure our southern border.  So although I don't necessarily agree with Trump's exact words, I agree with many of the basic principals.  From what I've heard, Trump has already started to soften his initial stance on many of these items.  I think he has shown an ability to adapt and change.  With good advisers around him and a house and senate to get through, I'm really not worried about it.  (Of course my idea of a good adviser is probably much different than a liberal democrat's.)  And if he does something questionable by executive order, it can be undone by the next president (just like Trump is going to undo some of the things that Obama did with which I disagree).

The bottom line is that I'm a moderately conservative republican.  A liberal democrat and I will never see eye to eye on what the right policies are because we have different political views.  What you find disturbing I might welcome with open arms.

Republicans and right wing media fear mongered for 8 years. I'm still waiting for Obama to take away everyone's guns and declare himself "President for Life". He still hasn't forced everyone to convert to Islam either.

You're actually helping to make my case about Trump.  Many of those fears about Obama didn't come true, so why do you now think all the left wing hysteria about Trump is going to come true?  It's the same damn over reaction on both sides.  One thing is for sure though, republicans weren't marching in the streets protesting and starting riots when we lost in 2008 and 2012.

I think the President has less impact on those things.

Tell that to the Obama administration and the democrats who are still trying to blame George W. Bush for everything bad in the world.  My God, it's about time they man up and take responsibility.  If I have to hear the phrase "we inherited the worst economy since the great depression" as an excuse one more time I think I'm going to vomit.  The recession has been over for seven years for crying out load, yet I still hear democrats reciting that worn out talking point.
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« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 12:36:22 AM by Bob B. »

Offline gillianren

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #114 on: November 13, 2016, 12:40:45 PM »
Yeah, but Obama never said he was going to take away people's guns.  Trump is saying he's going to take away people's health care.  And marriage rights.  And ability to enter the country.  The two are not comparable.
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Offline Bob B.

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #115 on: November 13, 2016, 12:59:13 PM »
Trump is saying he's going to take away people's health care.

No he's not. 

And marriage rights.

I don't know about that, it's not one of the things that I considered a priority.

And ability to enter the country.

What's wrong with that?

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #116 on: November 13, 2016, 01:03:20 PM »
Republicans and right wing media fear mongered for 8 years. I'm still waiting for Obama to take away everyone's guns and declare himself "President for Life". He still hasn't forced everyone to convert to Islam either.
You're actually helping to make my case about Trump.  Many of those fears about Obama didn't come true, so why do you now think all the left wing hysteria about Trump is going to come true?  It's the same damn over reaction on both sides.

It's not the same thing at all. Obama never promised to take your guns away, declare himself "President for Life", or convert everyone to Islam. Those were lies coming from the right. Trump's fear mongering is coming directly out of his mouth.

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One thing is for sure though, republicans weren't marching in the streets protesting and starting riots when we lost in 2008 and 2012.

That should tell you something about how terible Trump's ideas are. You didn't see riots when Obama was elected because he was promising to end two horrible wars, stop torturing people, and give people affordable healthcare. Trump is promising to take away people's rights and undo a lot of good done by previous administrations (not just Obama's).

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I think the President has less impact on those things.

Tell that to the Obama administration and the democrats who are still trying to blame George W. Bush for everything bad in the world.

It is perfectly reasonable to put the blame on the Bush administration for the state of the economy. It's a lot easier to destroy an economy than it is to rebuild it. If it was easy then no one would ever be concerned about recessions in the first place.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #117 on: November 13, 2016, 01:05:17 PM »
And ability to enter the country.

What's wrong with that?

Nothing if you can justify it with more than the colour of their skin or religion they follow.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 02:26:45 PM by LunarOrbit »
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #118 on: November 13, 2016, 02:33:47 PM »
That should tell you something about how terible Trump's ideas are.

Most of his ideas are only terrible to an extreme leftist.  I doubt many of those people marching in the streets are independents.

The left has this belief that if they think something is a bad idea that it is a universal truth that it is a bad idea.  The rest of the world is under no obligation to agree with you.
   
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 03:04:13 PM by Bob B. »

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #119 on: November 13, 2016, 08:37:57 PM »
Most of his ideas are only terrible to an extreme leftist.

I don't think you need to be an extreme leftist to value clean air and drinking water, or to believe shifting all of the wealth to 1% of the population is unfair and that all people should be treated equally. But right wing people live in little empathy-free bubbles where those things aren't problems until it affects them personally. You've expressed that yourself when Gillianren explained her concerns about how Trump could negatively affect 55% of the population and your response was "I don't care about that". Maybe you should.

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I doubt many of those people marching in the streets are independents.

Trump seems to have a lot of dissenters in his own party... or at least he did when they thought he might cost them the election. Now that he has won, who knows? Maybe they're okay with him sexually assaulting women now? 

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The left has this belief that if they think something is a bad idea that it is a universal truth that it is a bad idea.

How is the right any different? They think all of their ideas are gold... until they aren't, and then it's the other guy's fault. "We're going to invade Iraq and they will greet us as liberators." Yeah... how'd that turn out?

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The rest of the world is under no obligation to agree with you.

I'm pretty sure you'd find most of the world (outside of Russia) thinks the US is crazy for voting for Trump.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)