Author Topic: Trump will win?  (Read 94765 times)

Offline Zakalwe

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1598
Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #180 on: November 16, 2016, 07:04:44 AM »

Let's give Trump this. He was more magnanimous in victory than Farage was, who took the opportunity to be a contemptible as possible in Hemicycle immediately afterwards.

True. But if that's the best that we can say then it's really damning with faint praise.

Farage is repulsive- he's made himself a small fortune by taking a wage for the very organisation that he professes to despise. He now realises that the gravy train is over so he's casting about for a gig in America. The man is an odious toad....and that's insulting amphibians.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Jason Thompson

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1601
Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #181 on: November 16, 2016, 08:25:01 AM »
The man is an odious toad....and that's insulting amphibians.

"I think he's a psychotic low-life."

"And I think calling him that is an insult to the psychotic low-life community."

"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Bob B.

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 819
  • Bob the Excel Guru™
    • Rocket & Space Technology
Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #182 on: November 16, 2016, 11:14:26 AM »
Quote
If Clinton and Trump had exactly the same social programs, I'd vote for Clinton, because her husband did a pretty good job, and she seems cut from the same cloth. Trump has only a record of bankruptcies and failure to pay taxes.

Can he get away with it in America without being jailed?

Trump didn't do anything illegal.  Businesses are allowed to go bankrupt, we have bankruptcy laws for that.  As for the taxes, he's managed to avoid paying them because of a large loss that he wrote off years ago.  Again that is completely legal.  I've written off losses as well and I'm sure a lot of other people here have too.  Only a fool wouldn't take a legal write off or deduction.

Hillary Clinton is in more legal peril than Donald Trump.  She's still under investigation.  Of course her power, influence and wealth might get her off.
 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 11:54:07 AM by Bob B. »

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #183 on: November 16, 2016, 11:24:56 AM »
The Republicans have been courting racists since Nixon.  That's a simple fact.  It was at the time called the Southern Strategy, and it was used, successfully, to woo Southern Democrats, who were still opposed to the policies of Abraham Lincoln--and, yes, they existed, and, no, I don't deny that--to the Republican Party.  The Democrats knew it would happen; LBJ knew that signing civil rights legislation was losing the South for a generation.  Turns out he underestimated the power of Southern racist whites.

No, I didn't vote for Bill Clinton.  In 1992, I was just shy of my sixteenth birthday.  In 1996, California lost my absentee ballot application, and I didn't get to vote for anyone.  But even if I had, here's the thing about Bill Clinton as opposed to Donald Trump.  Bill Clinton's words didn't make me fear for people I loved.  I didn't fear that all women would lose rights under Bill Clinton.  I didn't fear that all disabled people would lose rights under Bill Clinton.  (Trump wants to gut the ADA.)  I didn't fear that all gay people--and, yes, I already cared in 1992--would lose rights under Bill Clinton.  I didn't fear that all people of a specific religion would lose rights under Bill Clinton.  I didn't fear that Bill Clinton would pack his transition team and White House staff with white supremacists.  Which Trump, of course, is already doing.  If you voted for Trump, it was either with the awareness that these things would happen or with a complete lack of awareness of Trump's own words.  Neither one of them speaks well for your concern for your fellow people.

And you know, those Southern Democrats who were wooed over to the Republican Party in the '60s?  Were opposed to laws that would force them to serve black people.  We as a society have agreed that you don't get to decide things like that based on your own prejudices.  We're just extending that to more groups.  And so for "go somewhere else," well, that's charming for people who have that option.  But if you live in a rural area, you probably don't.  And that's one of the reasons gay people leave those areas, because they're so discriminated against that it's basically impossible to stay and live a normal life.  Is that really something we think people deserve to have to do?
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline gillianren

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 2211
    • My Letterboxd journal
Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #184 on: November 16, 2016, 11:26:33 AM »
Hillary Clinton is in more legal peril than Donald Trump.  She's still under investigation.  Of course her power, influence and wealth might get her off.

So . . . you don't know about his fraud hearing.  Or, it seems, the fact that the FBI has consistently said that no court would convict her.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline Bob B.

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 819
  • Bob the Excel Guru™
    • Rocket & Space Technology
Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #185 on: November 16, 2016, 11:41:05 AM »
So . . . you don't know about his fraud hearing.  Or, it seems, the fact that the FBI has consistently said that no court would convict her.

I do know about the fraud hearing, but question was asked about bankruptcies and taxes.  The FBI investigation into the Clinton Foundation is still ongoing.

Offline Bob B.

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 819
  • Bob the Excel Guru™
    • Rocket & Space Technology
Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #186 on: November 16, 2016, 02:02:54 PM »
Demonizing Republicans as racists has been going on for a very long time.  It’s part of the Democratic Party grand strategy.  Many good and decent Republicans have been branded as racist in order to perpetuate the narrative.

The Democrats have built their platform around big government handouts.  They’re the party of welfare, food stamps, Social Security, Medicare, Obamacare, and, if they could get their way, free education and universal healthcare.  They’ve conditioned the poor and minorities to expect and rely on big government to take care of them.  If you want the handouts to continue, you must vote Democrat.

The Republican position has always been that we don’t want people to have to rely on government handouts.  We want to improve the economic conditions so that the poor can get good jobs, begin to provide for themselves, get off the cycle of dependency, and rise out of poverty.  As soon as a Republican starts to talk about this, they’re branded as racist because, the narrative goes, they want to take the free stuff away from poor minorities.  (Never mind the fact that there are more whites living in poverty in America than any other group.)  As soon as a Republican talks about trying to improve economic conditions for the poor, it’s “you just want your rich buddies to get richer.”  It is a strategy of class warfare aimed at trying to keep the poor a Democratic voting bloc.

Trump was a gift from God for the Democrats because they now had someone running as a Republican who actually said some racist and bigoted things.  They could hold him and his supporters up as an example to say the narrative is confirmed.  During the campaign its must have been nirvana because they had Trump to demonize, but he wasn’t going to actually win.  Now it’s sheer panic because they’ve spent the last year or more convincing themselves that Donald Trump is the devil incarnate.

Offline Bob B.

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 819
  • Bob the Excel Guru™
    • Rocket & Space Technology
Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #187 on: November 16, 2016, 04:55:20 PM »
I didn't fear that all women would lose rights under Bill Clinton.  I didn't fear that all disabled people would lose rights under Bill Clinton.  (Trump wants to gut the ADA.)  I didn't fear that all gay people--and, yes, I already cared in 1992--would lose rights under Bill Clinton.  I didn't fear that all people of a specific religion would lose rights under Bill Clinton.

What rights are you talking about specifically?  As far as the women's rights go, I assume you're talking about abortion.  For gay people, are you referring to gay marriage?

Trump says the issue of gay marriage is settled law and that he accepts the Supreme Court's ruling.

On the issue of abortion, Trump believes the Supreme Court got it wrong on the case of Roe v. Wade, but he believes it is up to the Court to decide.  Of course he also says he'll appoint pro-life justices, so it's pretty clear he wants to push the court in that direction.

The majority of the current eight justices support Roe v. Wade, so one Trump appointment will just return the balance to what is was with Antonin Scalia on the Court.  If one of the pro-choice judges retires and Trump gets to appoint a replacement, then there is cause for concern.  Of course Trump also says he wants to appoint strict constitutionalists to the Court.  So it's really not a matter of whether a justice is pro-choice or pro-life, it's a matter of whether they think Roe v. Wade is constitutional or unconstitutional.  Those are not the same thing and I'm not sure Trump has been clear about what kind of litmus test, if any, he will apply.  There is also the matter of over 40 years of precedence.  It may be very difficult for even a pro-life justice to overturn something that has been engrained in our society for that long.  It's clearly something that is going to have to play out in the Court, it may take years, and I don't think any of us can know what the eventual outcome will be.

And if Roe v. Wade is overturned, it doesn't make abortion illegal.  It just means that there is no constitutional right to an abortion.  It returns to the states the power to decide for themselves what the abortion laws will be within their borders.  And the U.S. Congress can always take up the matter and pass a law that makes abortion legal nationwide.  I don't know if such a law would require a simple majority, or if it would require the 2/3 vote needed to amend the constitution.  Obviously the latter would be far less likely to pass.

Offline Obviousman

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 743
Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #188 on: November 17, 2016, 12:09:10 AM »
You know what I like? That people here can have a passionate, heated discussion and still not resort to name-calling, insults, threats of banning, crossing off of the Xmas card list, etc.

That's why I like you all.

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1302
Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #189 on: November 17, 2016, 07:48:18 AM »
Clinton’s economic plan:  raise taxes.  Her jobs plan:  use those taxes to rebuild infrastructure.  While I agree we need to upgrade our infrastructure, as an economic/jobs plan, it sounds completely lamebrained to me.  It’s robbing Peter to pay Paul.  While some sectors might benefit from the infrastructure spending (engineering and construction firms for instance), all sectors are impacted by the tax hikes.  I think it would be devastating to jobs and the economy.

Let’s say you own a business that makes breakfast cereal.  Too bad, you’re not going to see a dime of that infrastructure money.  But your taxes are sure going up.  Your cost of doing business has just taken a big climb.  You’re either going to have to increase sales (which, if you could do that, you would have already done so), raise your prices, or cut operating costs.  Raising prices will either hurt your consumers, who may already be struggling to make ends meet, or force them to use less product or switch to a less expensive brand.  If either of the latter happens, you lose sales.  Your business is starting to fall into a death spiral.  In order to save the business you have to find a way to cut operating costs.  That’s never a good thing for the employees.

If your employees are lucky, maybe they’ll only see their wages frozen and their bonuses suspended.  More likely, some will lose their jobs or have their hours reduced.  Perhaps you’ll even cut back the labor force enough that you fall below the employee threshold so you can now stop providing health insurance coverage.  This might make your business profitable again, but you’re stuck at your current size and can’t afford to expand.  At least you saved the company.  Had you already been teetering on the edge of viability, the tax hikes might have forced you out of business altogether and thrown everybody onto the street.

For those lucky enough to keep their jobs, their incomes have been reduced and they’ve lost their health insurance.  I just hope they can afford to pay their mortgages and stay in their homes.  For those out of work, guess what, nobody else is hiring either because they’re all in the same predicament.  If you’re one of those out of work, there is one ray of hope – you can put on a hardhat and go see if you can get one of those infrastructure jobs.  Of course, having no experience in construction is going to work against you.  Perhaps somebody will give you a break and take you on as a common laborer, putting you to work running a jackhammer all day.  At least it puts food on the table.  I just hope the job doesn’t go to an illegal immigrant first.  One more thing, you’ll probably be forced to join the laborer’s union because the democrats are sure to put something in the bill to enrich Hillary’s union buddies.

But hey, you voted for it, right.

And here's an alternative narrative regarding using taxes to rebuild infrastructure.

Sure, it's only going to be engineering and construction firms which get contracts here, and that's going to completely dry up the labour market of skilled construction workers. So there's going to be competition among companies to poach those employees from each other. Presumably, then, there's going to be a market in training up partially skilled people (say, carpenters, plumbers and other people with a background in housing construction).

Then, as the infrastructure improves, traffic bottlenecks disappear and transport companies can deliver goods faster between cities and with lower fuel costs due to being able to maintain steady speeds for greater distances. As a result transport costs go down.

Due to savings in distribution costs, your cereal company can afford to drop the wholesale price of its products, making them more attractive to various supermarket chains. Sales go up and the company goes from two to three production shifts, hiring a few extra staff.

= = = =

As an example here in Australia is the highway between Canberra and Sydney, a distance of about 300 kilometres.

About 40 years ago the highway was one lane each way, passing through about four towns of various sizes and maybe half a dozen villages. There was one major hill about 60km south of Sydney (the Razorback for those who remember back that far) which broke the radiators of many cars and trucks. There were lots of passing lanes on hills, but in general the speed limit was at best 100 km/h, down to 60 km/h in the towns, and with several sets of traffic lights in the towns. A trip from Canberra to Sydney could easily exceed four hours, and be much worse in school holidays or bad weather.

Then, over the 1980s and 1990s dual carriageway bypasses were built (including avoiding the Razorback), along with freeway sections which gradually expanded and linked up. Since about 2000 we've had dual carriageway at 110 km/h with no traffic lights all the way from Canberra's edge to Sydney, and in the last few years we've had that continued through Canberra to link up with the highway going south to the snowfields. A trip from Canberra to Sydney is now usually done in under three hours in all conditions, even though the amount of traffic on the road has pretty much tripled.

This was all paid for by governments, state and federal, and the economic benefits to this part of the country are noticeable. Even the bypassed towns haven't suffered: those nearest Canberra and Sydney are now viable places for commuters to live, which they weren't before; many people work in the service centres along the highway; and the towns and villages along the way are tourist attractions in their own right, now that the highway traffic has been removed. On top of that there's the reduced medical and other costs from fewer vehicular accidents, injuries and deaths.
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

I'm a member of Lids4Kids - rescuing plastic for the planet.

Offline Glom

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1102
Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #190 on: November 17, 2016, 08:02:48 AM »
Roads to Prosperity was a green paper issued by the Conservative government the 1990s. Infrastructure is a goto for a bit of Keynesian stimulation because it actually achieves something at the end of it.

I wouldn't mind a bit of stimulus to build the M31.

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1302
Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #191 on: November 17, 2016, 08:27:06 AM »
But Hillary Clinton's plan was to simply take money out of one pocket and put it in another.  I don't see how that was going to stimulate growth one tiny bit.  If the money is just left with people who originally had it (before it was ceased by taxation), they would have spent it too.

Not necessarily, and not in the same way.

Poor people spend every dollar they earn because they're literally living from one pay to the next. Give them another $10 a week and they're going to spend it that week. Straight away it's into the local economy - the local supermarket or gas station or wherever - and those people are generally going to be spending it pretty quickly too. Within the course of a year that extra $10 will have passed through several hands.

By contrast the same $10 going to rich people is more likely to go into savings (sitting in a bank or superannuation account doing very little), or get spent overseas - wherever they take their holiday this year. If it gets spent in the USA, it's quite possibly going to be spent on a luxury item, which in turn is more likely to have been built by a large corporation (possibly an overseas one), meaning it goes into the pockets of other rich people.

Quote
Furthermore, a small business owner bringing in $250,000 a year is hardly the 1%.  Yet they would have seen their taxes go up under Clinton's plan.

Do you have a source for that please. My understanding was that Clinton's tax increases kicked in at a higher level.

Quote
They'll see a tax decrease under Trump's plan.  That could make the difference between laying off one employee or hiring one.

And yes, at that level of turnover a tax cut could make a difference. The problem lies with the much larger companies where executives are paid massively more than employees (according to this article, sometimes more than 300 times more than workers: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-04/verrender-the-warning-signs-were-there,-we-just-ignored-them/7566122)

Quote
Also, what's wrong with a few more maids finding work.

The problem is the opportunity cost - whether the money spent on tax breaks for the ultra-rich might have had a greater economic benefit if distributed among less wealthy people. There's a difference between some rich people employing "a few more maids" and thousands of small businesses each hiring one new employee.

Quote
No one every got a job from a poor person.

Maybe so. But it shouldn't be a matter of extremes: it should be possible to find ways to encourage small businesses to hire more staff and to encourage people to take the risk of going into business, without throwing even more money at the already well-off businesses.
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

I'm a member of Lids4Kids - rescuing plastic for the planet.

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1302
Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #192 on: November 17, 2016, 08:52:00 AM »
For what it's worth, here's my worldview:

Unfettered capitalism is very good at growing the economy, an area where socialist regimes fail, but it is also very good at making society more divided - "The rich get richer and the poor get nothing".  This creates all sorts of social problems, recent events a good example.

What I'd prefer is the sort of government allows business to thrive, but takes measures to redistribute the resulting wealth a bit more evenly, eg Sweden.  In particular, the government needs to stem the tide of wealth going into tax havens where it doesn't do any good for anyone.

*holds hand up and waves it around*

Try Australia.

We've done a reasonable job of looking after the vulnerable people in society while also giving people a chance to try their luck as entrepreneurs. (Although yes, there have been failures at both ends of the social spectrum.)

Plus, we have kangaroos. ;-)
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

I'm a member of Lids4Kids - rescuing plastic for the planet.

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1302
Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #193 on: November 17, 2016, 09:12:04 AM »
The Democrats have built their platform around big government handouts.  They’re the party of welfare, food stamps, Social Security, Medicare, Obamacare, and, if they could get their way, free education and universal healthcare.  They’ve conditioned the poor and minorities to expect and rely on big government to take care of them.  If you want the handouts to continue, you must vote Democrat.

Well, yes, I've heard that's an issue. However the charge only sticks if it's actually the case that an extensive number of people spend all their lives on welfare. I don't know for sure but I understand that most people who receive welfare do so for only a modest period of time, and then get their financial independence back - which is exactly how welfare should work: as a social safety net to support people until they can regain their financial independence - the economic cost then is much less than trying to lift people out of absolute penury.

ETA: There's an interesting ideological question here for Republicans, too. Do you object to universal healthcare because of cost or because it looks like socialism? Australia, it shouldn't need to be pointed out, is not a socialist country, yet our socialised universal healthcare system costs, per person, about half what the American system costs.

Quote
The Republican position has always been that we don’t want people to have to rely on government handouts.  We want to improve the economic conditions so that the poor can get good jobs, begin to provide for themselves, get off the cycle of dependency, and rise out of poverty.  As soon as a Republican starts to talk about this, they’re branded as racist because, the narrative goes, they want to take the free stuff away from poor minorities.  (Never mind the fact that there are more whites living in poverty in America than any other group.)  As soon as a Republican talks about trying to improve economic conditions for the poor, it’s “you just want your rich buddies to get richer.”  It is a strategy of class warfare aimed at trying to keep the poor a Democratic voting bloc.

The problem here is that the statistics show exactly that - whatever's been happening in the USA in the last 40 years has helped wealthy Americans far more than the rest (http://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 09:25:04 AM by Peter B »
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

I'm a member of Lids4Kids - rescuing plastic for the planet.

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1302
Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #194 on: November 17, 2016, 09:19:47 AM »
I didn't fear that all women would lose rights under Bill Clinton.  I didn't fear that all disabled people would lose rights under Bill Clinton.  (Trump wants to gut the ADA.)  I didn't fear that all gay people--and, yes, I already cared in 1992--would lose rights under Bill Clinton.  I didn't fear that all people of a specific religion would lose rights under Bill Clinton.

What rights are you talking about specifically?  As far as the women's rights go, I assume you're talking about abortion.  For gay people, are you referring to gay marriage?

I can't speak for Gillianren but I think there are more issues than those. In the case of women it could involve issues to do with equality of employment opportunity, access to finance (that is, loans and credit cards and the like), and access to medical services. For gay people it could include things like inheritance rights, reversion of pensions on the death of the partner, the ability to adopt children and access to IVF.
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

I'm a member of Lids4Kids - rescuing plastic for the planet.