Author Topic: Trump will win?  (Read 94740 times)

Offline twik

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #195 on: November 17, 2016, 09:25:37 AM »
For Bob B. - You say that gay rights are "settled," and that Trump doesn't show any hostility towards them.

It appears that he has a short listed a Supreme Court nominee who wants to make consensual gay sex illegal. Oh, excuse me. No, he just wishes to allow states to do so, and believes that the federal government has no right to stop them. That's much better, isn't it?

http://www.snopes.com/2016/11/17/pryor-lgbt-laws/. And don't forget that Pence as governor wished to divert funds for AIDS victims to gay conversion therapy. Because we all know gays are the only people afflicted by AIDS.

Offline Glom

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #196 on: November 17, 2016, 10:40:21 AM »
All of that sounds very un common law. The question should not be whether there is a right to gay relations, but whether there is a reason to proscribe it.

Offline twik

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #197 on: November 17, 2016, 10:56:07 AM »
All of that sounds very un common law. The question should not be whether there is a right to gay relations, but whether there is a reason to proscribe it.

Well, you know, Republicans just want the right to be left alone, and how can they enjoy being left alone knowing someone else is having horrible, immoral gay sex? (sarcasm, if you can't tell)

Offline gillianren

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #198 on: November 17, 2016, 12:42:46 PM »
I can't speak for Gillianren but I think there are more issues than those. In the case of women it could involve issues to do with equality of employment opportunity, access to finance (that is, loans and credit cards and the like), and access to medical services. For gay people it could include things like inheritance rights, reversion of pensions on the death of the partner, the ability to adopt children and access to IVF.

Quite.  Trump is claiming the law is settled and also talking about appointing someone who wants to reestablish the law allowing states to criminalize gay sex.  There is also the bathroom thing; Trump's VP was one of the voices behind forcing trans people to use the bathroom of their birth gender.  Which, incidentally, tends to result in trans women being subject to more assaults, both physical and sexual, than cis women experience when trans women use the women's bathroom.  Turns out that this is another case where cis het men are the problem.  (No, not all of them, but far fewer trans women are perpetrators of assault, and Pence doesn't have a problem accusing all of them of being predators.)  It's still legal in most states to fire people because they're gay, and I wouldn't at all be surprised if a Trump administration put out a national law codifying that.  And it turns out that Republicans have no problem overturning states' rights when they don't like the right the state is issuing.

Under the Hobby Lobby decision, an employer can make the decision for me if I am going to receive medication.  They can decide that they don't want me to have it because of their religious beliefs.  Believe it or not, plenty of people take the Pill for reasons having nothing to do with birth control.  But a mistaken belief that the Pill is an abortifacient is enough to prevent a company's employees from accessing it under their health insurance.  Even if the woman is using it to control endometriosis, that doesn't matter.  The employer's false beliefs are more important than the employee's health issues.

I'm afraid that the recent overturning of Don't Ask Don't Tell will be thrown out, and gay people will be banned from the military again.  Never mind that plenty of other countries have gay people serving in the military without difficulty.  The Israeli military has had men and women serving together, and contrary to Trump's cavalier "what do you expect?" doesn't have anywhere near the rape problem we do.  Hell, before DADT was thrown out, a man who was raped by his superiors, which is shockingly common, could be thrown out for being gay.  Even if he wasn't.

Trump's laughable "plan" for helping people pay for childcare only benefits about the top ten percent.  Which means I'm afraid more people will be unable to afford the shocking costs of childcare and will be looking to a social safety net that won't be there anymore, and that poor children will have fewer opportunities.  The reason people don't believe Republicans who claim to be helping poor Americans is that their plans don't help poor Americans.  What good are lowered taxes when you end up paying far, far more out for the services taxes were paying for?  Graham's sister's new in-laws were visiting from Sweden this summer, and they were appalled at the lack of services we get as Americans.  Yeah, they pay way more in taxes than we do, and they're fine with it.  They've still better off.
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Offline Peter B

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #199 on: November 17, 2016, 04:20:43 PM »
Trump's laughable "plan" for helping people pay for childcare only benefits about the top ten percent.  Which means I'm afraid more people will be unable to afford the shocking costs of childcare and will be looking to a social safety net that won't be there anymore, and that poor children will have fewer opportunities.  The reason people don't believe Republicans who claim to be helping poor Americans is that their plans don't help poor AmericansWhat good are lowered taxes when you end up paying far, far more out for the services taxes were paying for?  Graham's sister's new in-laws were visiting from Sweden this summer, and they were appalled at the lack of services we get as Americans.  Yeah, they pay way more in taxes than we do, and they're fine with it.  They've still better off.

The same in Australia. Opinion polls have shown (yeah, okay) that Australians are generally willing to pay more tax in order to fund more services.

The thing is, here in Australia we have absurdly complicated forms of social welfare which often ends up assisting well-off people as well as the poor; middle-class welfare is an ongoing issue, brought on by a conservative government which realised one way to stay in power was to use the tax windfall from a resources boom to provide benefits for our relatively large middle class. Now that the resources boom is over we have structural budget problems which both sides of politics are being tardy about dealing with, for fear of losing votes to the other side. This is despite the fact of the opinion polls suggesting that voters respect governments which are willing to make hard economic decisions.
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Offline Peter B

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #200 on: November 18, 2016, 06:36:17 AM »
A couple of random thoughts...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-18/donald-trump-presidential-transition-yuge-task/8036766

This article includes the results of a couple of surveys taken a week before and a week after the election, about perceptions of the state of the US economy. What's interesting to note is how much better performing Republicans think the economy is when asked after the election, compared with before. Yet how much could possibly change about the economy in a fortnight?

And, interestingly, this article (http://www.newswithviews.com/guest_opinion/guest305.htm) published in March this year lists Mike Pence as a Dominionist (along with at least a few people listed as possible members of Trump's cabinet). It'd be a sad irony if one of the least religious Presidents in recent decades ends up presiding over one of the most overtly religious cabinets in recent decades.
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Offline alvarez

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #201 on: November 18, 2016, 08:32:51 AM »
If the government does it it is a war crime, not terrorism.

For some reason, "We're not terrorists, we're war criminals!" was not used as a campaign slogan this time around.  I can't figure out why.

But in any event, it depends on your definition, with the same country sometimes having conflicting definitions.  For example, Title 22 of the United States Code states that terrorism is committed by "subnational groups or clandestine agents".  Now why on earth would the United States want a definition of terrorism that specifies that it is performed by "subnational groups"?  Can anyone think of a reason?  But in any event, it looks like the lawmakers dropped the ball with the "clandestine agents" part - the United States can (and has) used clandestine agents to commit premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets, thereby satisfying all the other requirements of the Title 22 definition.  Such inexcusable incompetence on the part of the lawmakers, no?

This is not the only definition the US has; it also has a Title 18 definition which does not exclude national groups.  Whatever were they thinking?

Let's ask Edward Peck, United States Chief of Mission to Iraq during the Carter administration and also United States ambassador to Mauritania, who did some work for Ronald Reagan.

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In 1985, when I was the Deputy Director of the Reagan White House Task Force on Terrorism, [my working group was asked] to come up with a definition of terrorism that could be used throughout the government. We produced about six, and each and every case, they were rejected, because careful reading would indicate that our own country had been involved in some of those activities. […] After the task force concluded its work, Congress [passed] U.S. Code Title 18, Section 2331 ... the US definition of terrorism. […] one of the terms, "international terrorism," means "activities that," I quote, "appear to be intended to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping." […] Yes, well, certainly, you can think of a number of countries that have been involved in such activities. Ours is one of them. […] And so, the terrorist, of course, is in the eye of the beholder.

This dangerous anti-American criminal is still alive.  Justice has not yet been served.

William Odom was a three-star general in the American army, and the director of the NSA during the Reagan administration.  Here's what he had to say.

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As many critics have pointed, out, terrorism is not an enemy. It is a tactic. Because the United States itself has a long record of supporting terrorists and using terrorist tactics, the slogans of today's war on terrorism merely makes the United States look hypocritical to the rest of the world.

This dangerous anti-American criminal escaped justice, having died of a heart attack in 2008.

However, we can use your preferred nomenclature, and refer to "war crimes" rather than "terrorism".

Presidents who haven't violated international law are few and far between.
The electorate never seemed to care.

Many members of the electorate do not care, and why should they?  They are not the victims of war crimes, foreigners are.  As long as they get theirs, why should they care how many thousands of foreigners are slaughtered?

But Clinton never was president, the president makes the decisions and bares the moral responsibility.

I think you meant "bears", as the president does not "bare" the moral responsibility; he rather tries to hide the moral responsibility, which is the opposite of baring it.

But, the Second Halcyon Dayz Principle above must bring warmth to the hearts of people like Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld.  The United States government itself seems to take a somewhat different view of the situation, having once attempted to prosecute Usama bin Ladn's chauffeur for terrorism.  The prosecution failed, but not because the law was declared invalid; rather, it was an ex post facto law, passed by the US congress after Mr. bin Ladn's associate had stopped providing his chauffeuring services.  Usama bin Ladn's next chauffeur, however, should he ever be captured and tried by the United States, may find "I'm just a driver, it's my boss you want!" does not save his neck.  In fact, there are people in prison for 65 years in the United States for donating money to charities registered as tax-exempt organisations; despite this seal of approval from the US government itself, they were found to be conduits to some organisations in Palestine that were so nefarious the US government actually supported them with funds.  So the US government does not seem to accept the Second Halcyon Dayz Principle.  They even forgot to let all the other Nazis go when Adolf Hitler blew his brains out.

But, if someone serves as a high government official in a president's administration, plans, recommends, and supports operations including war crimes, even though they are exonerated by the Second Halcyon Dayz Principle, they must be careful - they must not actually vote for the president in whose administration they are serving.  If they do, then they are endorsing the war crimes, according to the First Halcyon Dayz Principle:

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Candidates are a package deal.
If you vote for a candidate who advocates bigotry for other reasons than their bigotry you are still endorsing the bigotry.
You didn't find the bigotry objectionable enough to not vote for it, you are fine with people who don't happen to be middle class white heterosexual males being discriminated against as long as you get yours.

So it is acceptable to plan, organise, and support war crimes in a president's organisation - you're completely clean, as long as you don't actually vote for that president.

Or do I misunderstand the First Principle as applying to war crimes, when it really only applies to bigotry?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 08:38:33 AM by alvarez »

Offline twik

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #202 on: November 18, 2016, 01:09:19 PM »
Alvarez, would you expect Trump not to be a "terrorist"  by this definition after his first year in office? Because is your point is that you won't vote for anyone who has supported the U.S. government in clandestine means, I doubt you'd ever vote for someone's second term. And yes, that would Include Jill Stein.

Offline Halcyon Dayz, FCD

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #203 on: November 18, 2016, 01:22:06 PM »
I was being sarcastic.

If a foreign country did to American citizens what the US government did, and does, to foreign nationals, America would most likely consider it a reason to go to war.

And yes, most American voters don't seem to care, many don't seem to be even aware of it.
This attitude might be a product of the Cold War, but America has engaged in crimes since the very beginning.
To name the Trail of Tears, the colonial war against the people of the Philippines, and the repeated invasions and occupation of sovereign countries in Latin America during the 20ties and 30ties as examples.

The system is rigged in favour of maintaining the power of the duopoly, and since the duopoly controls the system that is not going to change any time soon.
So the few who do speak out have a problem when it comes to electing the Criminal-in-Chief, many give up hope for peaceful change and don't vote at all, others hold their nose and vote for literally the lesser evil.

Trump is not the lesser evil, he's the greater evil by a considerable margin.
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Offline Halcyon Dayz, FCD

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #204 on: November 18, 2016, 01:43:03 PM »
To elaborate:

Clinton is a pragmatic realpolitiker. She will do what she considers necessary to further the interests of the US.
And she's aware that a good international reputation is in the interest of the US.
She's rational and amoral.

Trump is a spoiled unstable vindictive narcissistic six-years-old brat in the body of a botoxed billionaire.
He doesn't have the emotional maturity to care about anything other than Trump.
He's irrational and immoral.

Who do you think is the lesser threat to the safety and well-being of the world, including the US?
Hatred is a cancer upon the world.
It rots the mind and blackens the heart.

Offline twik

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #205 on: November 18, 2016, 04:40:16 PM »
Remember, Trump may be inexperienced, but will surround himself with good people who will get rid of the extremists and guide him on the path of good government.

Like this choice: "Senator Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III, a man whose views on race once led a Senate committee to deem him unfit for a federal judgeship, is Donald Trump’s choice to head the federal agency that enforces the nation’s civil-rights laws."

Offline gillianren

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #206 on: November 19, 2016, 11:04:53 AM »
Oh, come now!  He stopped supporting the Klan just as soon as he found out they smoke pot!
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Offline alvarez

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #207 on: November 20, 2016, 11:44:07 AM »
So the few who do speak out have a problem when it comes to electing the Criminal-in-Chief, many give up hope for peaceful change and don't vote at all, others hold their nose and vote for literally the lesser evil.

Trump is not the lesser evil, he's the greater evil by a considerable margin.

Funny thing there - just a few weeks ago, I thought along very similar lines.  If I were faced with an election between two candidates, neither one of whom were ideal, I would have thought to myself, "If neither one of these candidates is good, then which one of them is less bad?"  So I would have thought about it for a while, made my choice, and then voted for that one, even though I may have disagreed (perhaps very strongly) with some of the policies of the person for whom I was voting.

However, just within the past few weeks, it has been my fortune to come across a number of wise and virtuous people who have convinced me of the error of this way of thinking, and argued very persuasively that one must strive for complete ideological purity.  One of them wrote this:

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Candidates are a package deal.
If you vote for a candidate who advocates bigotry for other reasons than their bigotry you are still endorsing the bigotry.
You didn't find the bigotry objectionable enough to not vote for it, you are fine with people who don't happen to be middle class white heterosexual males being discriminated against as long as you get yours.

Which makes you part of the problem.
Certainly something that deserves to be criticized.

No "lesser evil" for the author of this quote, eh?  So even if you are making your choice for completely noble and righteous reasons, like support for free or subsidised healthcare, gay marriage, or mandatory death penalty for anyone who doesn't think the United States is the greatest country the world has ever known or yet shall know, you are still endorsing any more nefarious positions/attributes the candidate may happen to possess.  Best not to do it at all.

Someone else properly chastised a person who presented a "lesser evil" sort of argument, stating:

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I'm so sorry if you're upset that voting for a racist, homophobic, incompetent misogynist gets you smeared as a bigot.  I can't imagine why that would happen.

No "lesser of evils" here either.  You need to stand up and own all of your candidate's positions!  Although "bigot" is a long way from the worst thing one could be smeared as in this particular election cycle, don't you think?

These are just two of the people who are pointing out the folly of "lesser of evils" arguments.  Perhaps it would be helpful if you were to explain where the two wise and learned people cited above have gone wrong, and how a "lesser of evils" choice is justifiable.

Offline alvarez

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #208 on: November 20, 2016, 11:53:17 AM »
Alvarez, would you expect Trump not to be a "terrorist"  by this definition after his first year in office? Because is your point is that you won't vote for anyone who has supported the U.S. government in clandestine means, I doubt you'd ever vote for someone's second term. And yes, that would Include Jill Stein.

That's quite a lot of words for someone who's not talking to me, don't you think?

But, you are one among many who seem to have forgotten what they themselves said only a few days before.  Which brings me to another point - I have noticed something I hadn't really anticipated (although perhaps I should have) in the last few days.

I have known many Americans who have been suffering from amnesia for eight years now (some of them even longer).  For example, many of them had forgotten completely that they were against extrajudicial killing.  And yet, just in the last few days, many of them have been cured completely!  What do you think of that?

Perhaps the new American president-elect has some clandestine healthcare programme, that is already improving Americans' memories.  If so, maybe he can help the people in this thread who have trouble remembering the principles they elucidated just hours or days before.  We'll find out soon enough.

Offline twik

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Re: Trump will win?
« Reply #209 on: November 21, 2016, 10:12:34 AM »
I'm rather intrigued as to why someone who has never posted before on Apollohoax has suddenly shown up to defend Trump in one of it's "Other Topics" threads.

So, alvarez, what's your position on the Moon Hoax? Did we go to the Moon or not? If Bart Sibrel ran against a Democrat, would you vote for him?