New Claim About the A16 Photo Smear. This One Has Me Stumped.

[AstroBrant]

Hello again friends,
I saw a video yesterday in which it was pointed out that AS16-114-18444 has the well-known smear that messed up so many photos on the last EVA. The consensus has been that when John and Charlie wiped the reseau plate of John's camera in the LM with a damp cloth, that was when the smear occurred. But that picture was taken at Station 9, at the end of EVA2, before they returned to the LM and did the wiping! In fact, all the rest of the pictures on that magazine had the smear, and they were all taken before the end of EVA2. It couldn't be that the smear printed onto the film when they replaced the magazine after wiping the reseau plate, and then dried. That would only affect one photo.

So it seems this smear had to have occurred when John switched magazines at Station 9. Then if they did wipe the reseau plate in that camera after EVA2, it certainly would not have looked the same in all the rest of the photos taken with that camera.

I am at a loss to figure out how this smear could have happened. I've spent several hours in the ALSJ trying to figure it out. Something got onto that reseau plate during the magazine switch at Station 9. If this hasn't come up before, I'm guessing it will take some considerable research, so in advance, I thank anyone who makes the effort. When this gets resolved, I would like to notify the editor of ALSJ, (giving credit to the ApolloHoax.net forum), if the consensus to this point has turned out to be wrong. Several edits in the ALSJ would be in needed if that is the case.

[JayUtah]

Obviously the best chance for contamination is when the magazine is removed and the reseau plate is exposed.  And the most likely contaminant is lunar dust.

[Bryanpoprobson]

If you look at their statement on the issue, they are saying that the dust got on the camera and they made an attempt to clear it. It would be logical to state that the dust got in when they changed the magazine, he may well have tried to clear the dust with his glove.



When you look at that statement again, they are talking about the dust on the outside of the camera which they tried to wipe off with a cloth. ie The comment:- " we wiped them down with a cloth inside," refers to wiping down the cameras "inside" the LM. They seem oblivious to the dust inside the camera until after the films were developed.

Young's statement is the key:- "I guess, according to the photo guys, we got some dust inside the reseau."

[bknight]

I don't think so Jay:
Quote from the ALSJ:

EVA-2 images, from Station 9. Readers should note that the smudges visible on frames 18444 to 18470 at the end of the magazine are most likely on the original film. The scans linked below were made by NASA Johnson from the original film in about 2005-6. Identical smudges appear on scans made from prints and negatives which derive from duplicate negatives made long ago from the original film, probably not long after the film arrived in Houston from the Moon. Because the original film is the only common ancestor, the smudges are necessarily on the orginal film. The fact that the film was in the LM cabin between the time 18443 and 18444 were taken may be significant.

EDIT: I have looked at several of the images 18444, 18447, 18448, 18470 and comparing the smudge I don't believe the description in ALSJ.  The smudges appear to be identical in shape which may explained by the log when John stated that lunar be dust may on the reseau plate.  I thought it was the OJ smeared when attempting to clean the plate, originally.

[JayUtah]

I don't think so Jay:

Indeed, possibly.  I'm not where I can research this in suitable depth, so in that situation it makes sense just to compile what we know to be most probable.  I should have more time on Monday to look at it with my good image analysis situation, and to read all the pertinent documents you guys are already finding.

[bknight]

That was what my edit indicated. I'm with on the reseau plate contamination, although  it may be orange juice instead of dust.  The orange color on the images is strane.

[BertieSlack]

So it seems this smear had to have occurred when John switched magazines at Station 9. Then if they did wipe the reseau plate in that camera after EVA2, it certainly would not have looked the same in all the rest of the photos taken with that camera.

The smear is also visible on photos taken with Mag 116 - which seems to be the only mag used on John's camera during EVA-3. So whatever got onto the reseau plate at station 9 stayed there.

[AstroBrant]

Thanks for the responses, guys.
The smear first appears in AS16-114-18444. That was the first exposure for that magazine after John attached it to the camera at Station 9. That magazine had been used earlier in the mission. The magazine he took off was 107, which showed no sign of the streaks. So the smear had to have occurred while he was exchanging magazines.

What might help is if someone is familiar with exactly how these magazines attach to the camera, and whether some gunk, (orange juice, as some suggest), got on the edge of mag 114 was smeared down the reseau plate when it was mounted. Jay, I know you have handled identical cameras. I've also wondered if it might have gotten on that removable light-proof shield that's on the front of each magazine, while it was out of the camera, and then got deposited on the plate when reloading or when advancing one frame before taking any actual pictures.

If it had been orange juice, then it would have been out in the vacuum for all that time before 114 was mounted. I don't exactly know the chemistry here, but it would seem that the juice would have no water content in it by then. So maybe some greasy substance that might retain its viscosity for awhile?

And yes, I think there is a possibility that John got something on his glove that was transferred to the plate or the edge of the magazine when he exchanged them. 

Does the film actually press against the reseau plate, or is there a small space? If there's direct contact, the gook may have gotten on the film and then spread onto the plate when the film was advanced from 18443.

[bknight]

So it seems this smear had to have occurred when John switched magazines at Station 9. Then if they did wipe the reseau plate in that camera after EVA2, it certainly would not have looked the same in all the rest of the photos taken with that camera.

The smear is also visible on photos taken with Mag 116 - which seems to be the only mag used on John's camera during EVA-3. So whatever got onto the reseau plate at station 9 stayed there.

You are correct. Most, if not all, images from Mag 116 have the smudge/smear.

[AstroBrant]

So it seems this smear had to have occurred when John switched magazines at Station 9. Then if they did wipe the reseau plate in that camera after EVA2, it certainly would not have looked the same in all the rest of the photos taken with that camera.

The smear is also visible on photos taken with Mag 116 - which seems to be the only mag used on John's camera during EVA-3. So whatever got onto the reseau plate at station 9 stayed there.

Yep. So all we have to do is find that camera and do a chemical analysis of it!
(Hey! maybe that's not so far-fetched. If people have gone to so much trouble to do chemical and other analyses of the Shroud of Turin, why not this?)
 

[onebigmonkey]

Is it possible that something got on to Mag 116 itself that was then introduced to the reseau when it was changed?

[BertieSlack]

Yep. So all we have to do is find that camera and do a chemical analysis of it!

It looks like the smears on Mag 116 (used on EVA-3) are darker than the smears on Mag 114 (used from station 9 onwards on EVA-2). That might suggest that the gunk on the reseau plate is sticky and actually picks up more dust etc when the mags were changed after EVA-2.

[Allan F]

Then it could very well be orange juice - the sugar content will behave exactly like that - most of the water will evaporate, but some will be retained in the sugar and could very well have a consistency so it could be smeared.

[AstroBrant]

Is it possible that something got on to Mag 116 itself that was then introduced to the reseau when it was changed?

It wouldn't have been mag 116, because it first appeared on mag 114, which was used the day before.

[AstroBrant]

Yep. So all we have to do is find that camera and do a chemical analysis of it!

It looks like the smears on Mag 116 (used on EVA-3) are darker than the smears on Mag 114 (used from station 9 onwards on EVA-2). That might suggest that the gunk on the reseau plate is sticky and actually picks up more dust etc when the mags were changed after EVA-2.

I noticed how it got darker, too, but it looks like you might have figured out why. Nice.