Strong arguments versus weak arguments.

[Tedward]

And I don`t denounce astronauts as cowards or hoaxers, it was not up to them to decide. And it was not up to many great engineers who contributed to that project, and it would be  not their decision.....
 Time will only tell, and as time goes, and US extrnal debt accumulates  beyond  reason, so will shrink NASA budget. All I expect  then is more sloppiness to appear, which will finally lead to  leakage  to more information on Apollo.  Kinda Tonkin incident from space to put in a poor analogy.That is my belief.

Actually, I think that a hoax scenario would have have people running for the hills. This was not a tin pot country where your relatives were taken away or threatened and you were forced to do the deed under the pain of death. If you were an engineer and asked to participate in this, I think the more likely scenario would be the engineers and scientists would walk away. You would end up with people not qualified fumbling through it and then your chums would be able to find evidence. Unlike now.

The problem is the legacy says it was people with the qualifications and ability to do so. You see, to fake it, they have a dark secret that will be with them for the rest of their lives. Someone finds out, secret is out and these people are now known as frauds and liars. This crops up then on your resumé. Professional pride dented, the few engineers I have met are very driven and, well, professional.

This all extends down, you cannot have someone who has trouble building a lego set constructing something that will be tested and proven and left for posterity for other engineers to examine. This is where your and your chums fall over.

Time has told, people can examine the legacy.

I believe you have a few questions from other posters outstanding.

[SolusLupus]

He never did solve the telemetry conundrum, did he?

[Tedward]

The telemetry, and even as I am not an engineer or scientist, is quite easy to see why it is a problem for the hoax.
You do not have to start to look at it for long with a HB hat on to see the holes in the situation. The comms from up there to down here provide some theory holes that cannot be plugged. Well, they can be plugged, you do it for real.

When I say HB hat on, I mean trying to think it through as if it was a hoax. What would you have to do compared to what we know.

And glued sand. That is still tickling me.

[Glom]

The telemetry, and even as I am not an engineer or scientist, is quite easy to see why it is a problem for the hoax.
You do not have to start to look at it for long with a HB hat on to see the holes in the situation. The comms from up there to down here provide some theory holes that cannot be plugged. Well, they can be plugged, you do it for real.

I know, I know.  It's only the billionth time I've posted it, but it needs to be reposted time and time again.

Even that hack Mitchell is showing up how idiotic the whole conspiracy theory is.

[Tedward]

 

Not seen that before.

[advancedboy]

`Actually, I think that a hoax scenario would have have people running for the hills. This was not a tin pot country where your relatives were taken away or threatened and you were forced to do the deed under the pain of death. If you were an engineer and asked to participate in this, I think the more likely scenario would be the engineers and scientists would walk away. You would end up with people not qualified fumbling through it and then your chums would be able to find evidence. Unlike now.`
Noone is forced  or was. The same as banks don`t coerce  anyone to take  a loan. Once you have signed a contract, the tune can change.  Not all the engineers knew what was going on,  it was on the basis of compartmentalisation.  And people don`t walk away from good paychecks. It wasn`t started as a hoax most likely. It probably was an honest attempt to build a genuine moon programm. I guess superb complexity of movements that could fail, coupled with many other problems such as real lift capability of F-1, reentry in atmosphere at high speeds, Van Allen belts, solar flares,. Besides the time limit is phenomenally short. Remember how many years it took  to build aircraft like  F-22Raptor, or JSF, or YF-23. These programmes usually lasted at least 15 years. And even now  Raptor has so many issues, and can barely keeep up with 4+ generation Sukhoi 27 derivatives in maneouverability.  I don`t know when was given the `go ahead`  to make the program happen at any cost even if  it demanded going out of reality. You can discredit me completely. Simply attribute to me as plane stupid or Apollo stupid, and put me into  a regular ignorant category. Why bother arguing with an idiot like me at all. I am not knowledgeable at anything dealing with tech, so  it is simple as that. You constantly prove me being wrong, so be it . I will stick with it. Why educate an idiot? Just by reading you can very simply see how regular, plain joe I am , and how ignorant of any tech field I am. So keep on talking to each other about  equations, what Neil ate at breakfast etc. We Latvians be too stupid. I am beyond repair  regarding Apollo, and regarding Kaysing lying as well.
.

[Jason Thompson]

Noone is forced  or was.

Then once it became apparent it was going to be faked, they kept on with it, sacrificing their morals and ideals for the sake of a paycheck. And you don't see how that is calling those people liars and frauds? You are blind, aren't you?

Remember how many years it took  to build aircraft like  F-22Raptor, or JSF, or YF-23. These programmes usually lasted at least 15 years.

Irrelevant. The problems of building high-performance jet aircraft with large production numbers are entirely different from the problems of building spacecraft.

You constantly prove me being wrong, so be it . I will stick with it.

Then that just marks you out as another wilfully ignorant hoax believer who can't bring himself to understand that he has the opportunity here to LEARN and will not avail himself of it.

I am beyond repair  regarding Apollo, and regarding Kaysing lying as well.

That is sad. I really mean that. Such a waste of potential.

[Glom]

So you admit you don't know anything. Instead of trying to court pity for being exposed as such, why not try to learn? It is clear you are predisposed to believe in a hoax. Let go of your hate and open your eyes. Don't be a sheeple being herded around by hucksters exploiting your ignorance. Learn and understand the truth. There is no hoax, just a big bag of lunar awesomeness.

[Echnaton]

Jay, it is the dwindling US precision manufacturing, that puzzles me. It is the fact that Airbus takes a bigger and bigger slice out of Boeing`s pie. It is that every next generation civil aircraft Boeing makes  , has less and less domestic engineering, accounting for 787 only 35%.

If you want to discuss the economics of the modern aerospace industry I'd be happy to join in at the conclusion of this discussion.  After you address the questions put to you here, start at thread in the general discussion area.  While not an economist or an industry expert, I do cover the industry for my firm as an equity analyst and have access to some resources that might be of interest in a discussion.  But the topic is irrelevant to the moon hoax and is out of topic for the tread.

[advancedboy]

`Irrelevant. The problems of building high-performance jet aircraft with large production numbers are entirely different from the problems of building spacecraft.`
You said it. That shows how much you understand principles of precision manufacturing.

[Echnaton]

And people don`t walk away from good paychecks.

Do you include yourself in this category? If not, tell us why not.

Why educate an idiot?

See my sig line.

[Andromeda]

`Irrelevant. The problems of building high-performance jet aircraft with large production numbers are entirely different from the problems of building spacecraft.`
You said it. That shows how much you understand principles of precision manufacturing.

I submit that Jason knows much more about than you do.

[Tedward]

`Actually, I think that a hoax scenario would have have people running for the hills. This was not a tin pot country where your relatives were taken away or threatened and you were forced to do the deed under the pain of death. If you were an engineer and asked to participate in this, I think the more likely scenario would be the engineers and scientists would walk away. You would end up with people not qualified fumbling through it and then your chums would be able to find evidence. Unlike now.`
Noone is forced  or was. The same as banks don`t coerce  anyone to take  a loan. Once you have signed a contract, the tune can change.  Not all the engineers knew what was going on,  it was on the basis of compartmentalisation.  And people don`t walk away from good paychecks. It wasn`t started as a hoax most likely. It probably was an honest attempt to build a genuine moon programm. I guess superb complexity of movements that could fail, coupled with many other problems such as real lift capability of F-1, reentry in atmosphere at high speeds, Van Allen belts, solar flares,. Besides the time limit is phenomenally short. Remember how many years it took  to build aircraft like  F-22Raptor, or JSF, or YF-23. These programmes usually lasted at least 15 years. And even now  Raptor has so many issues, and can barely keeep up with 4+ generation Sukhoi 27 derivatives in maneouverability.  I don`t know when was given the `go ahead`  to make the program happen at any cost even if  it demanded going out of reality. You can discredit me completely. Simply attribute to me as plane stupid or Apollo stupid, and put me into  a regular ignorant category. Why bother arguing with an idiot like me at all. I am not knowledgeable at anything dealing with tech, so  it is simple as that. You constantly prove me being wrong, so be it . I will stick with it. Why educate an idiot? Just by reading you can very simply see how regular, plain joe I am , and how ignorant of any tech field I am. So keep on talking to each other about  equations, what Neil ate at breakfast etc. We Latvians be too stupid. I am beyond repair  regarding Apollo, and regarding Kaysing lying as well.
.

Regards signing contracts. Secret org to perspective employee. Sign here please, we will tell you what it is about later......

Does not sound too good does it? Even if someone signed before they knew then there would be nothing to stop them leaving or exposing the sham. Do you think engineers do not network? Secret org going to take them to court.....

Compartmentalisation. Rubbish. I have a box at home. It does stuff. I do not know how it was made but I can find out. And it works, I get all the channels I want and many I do no not want. Could I make one? Not easily but I can get to understand how the components interact. Could you separate all the process apart at the factory and compartment them? Yes. What happens when all the parts are assembled? The TV still works. Thing is the end product has to work. The parts have to fit, someone making a hinge will know if the pin in it is useless and the ones attaching the hinge assembly will know if the assembly is rubbish. And so on, I do not know anything about hinges used in Apollo BTW. Compartmenting departments will not fit the hoax theory as the end product has to do the job. This leads back to that excellent video above.

And people don`t walk away from good paychecks. Have you examined this in detail? What evidence do you have that people with morals in certain circumstances do not walk, indeed, any walkers at all? Not looked at it myself so assume you have the details.

Besides the time limit is phenomenally short. Remember how many years it took  to build aircraft like  F-22Raptor, or JSF, or YF-23. These programmes usually lasted at least 15 years. And even now  Raptor has so many issues, and can barely keeep up with 4+ generation Sukhoi 27 derivatives in maneouverability.

Different things. Different situations and constraints.

I don`t know when was given the `go ahead`  to make the program happen at any cost even if  it demanded going out of reality. You can discredit me completely.

The history of how it came about is interesting. I would recommend an online book.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4205/contents.html

[ka9q]

coupled with many other problems such as real lift capability of F-1

What's that about the F-1? You do seem to have a fascination with that particular rocket engine, can you explain why? Did you not understand the significance of the F-1's rather poor I_sp of only 263 seconds? Do you know what I_sp means and why it is important?

Before you go on about the F-1 not working as advertised, keep in mind that millions of people lined the beaches in person to watch the 13 Saturn V launches (actually 12 Saturn V/Apollo launches and one custom 2-stage version that launched Skylab in 1973). Hundreds of millions more watched the launches live on TV, sometimes even with knowledgeable reporter commentary. Reporters and individuals were given tours of the VAB and Pad 39. They could see and measure with their own eyes the dimensions of each stage of the rocket, the time it took to clear the launch pad, the time it took to pass Mach-1 (when very characteristic shock clouds form), and the time it took the S-IC (first stage) to exhaust its propellants and separate.

Any claims about the "true" performance of the F-1 must be consistent with every publicly observed and confirmed fact.

[advancedboy]

No entry  to be validated. Log end.