Author Topic: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.  (Read 151216 times)

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2017, 03:37:05 PM »

I've no idea of my settings.  I took this years ago.  This is not my Statement of Professional Photography.  This is in the back garden in winter in the UK.
Can you not read the EXIF data?

I don't have it.  Possibly taken in 2010.  I've lost over 100gb of data due a HDD failure.  This image is taken from my FB page.  It's all I have of it.  It's not a very long exposure but you can see it starting to trail.  It's not cropped either If I remember.  I had a big lens back then.

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2017, 03:42:03 PM »
There's another question I could ask then.  From a still image, lets say the edit one I have supplied, how can we prove, that those dots etc are NOT stars! We must assume you have never seen this image in your life and know nothing of it's origin.  Prove to me they're not stars from these images.

No, you don't get to shift the burden of proof like that.  Claiming that stars would be visible in an image taken on ISO160 with f11 at 1/250th is an extraordinary claim.  It is therefore up to you to provide evidence for your claim.  First, demonstrate that you can even get latent stellar images of the night sky using those settings (I'll grant you an f-stop's leeway to compensate for atmospheric absorption).  You already compared images and did not get correlation.  Another method would be to compare the position of the artifacts to known star patterns.  Keep in mind that the FOV is ~57° wide.

I am assuming that those figures are from the Hasselblad camera used?  and I haven't 'Claimed' anything.  I said I think these are stars.  Nothing else at all!

The rest of this thread is proving they're not.  For so much knowledge available in here, there must be a way to prove it?  Unless the proof as stated is in the knowledge that a Blad using asa160 at f11 for 25th/sec IS the proof?  I've never used one, or been to the moon.  I can't prove shit!  That's why i'm in here!

Offline Count Zero

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2017, 03:43:49 PM »
I am not a professional photographer, but I do know that if you photograph the sky with ISO160 film at f11 & 1/250th you will not see stars.  Kiwi has already quantified exactly why this is so on page 1 of this thread.  This isn't a matter of professional credentials (or whom to believe, or what we've been told); it's a matter of the rock-solid fundamentals of your profession.

This is not meant to dis you.  It is simply that most professional photographers I've met have made their living by photographing portraits, weddings, landscapes, models, sporting events (or other photojournalism), etc.  However, unless they have tried their hand at astrophotography, they often don't understand just how difficult it is to capture a stellar image.

So you have found stars in processed negatives.  Fine; but as you know, not all negatives are equal.  What was the photo stock?  ISO?  What was the f-stop & shutter speed?  How do you know that what you saw on the negatives were, in fact, stars?  (These are rhetorical questions, by the way; meant to get you thinking about the science involved, instead of "common sense" and "what it looks like to me".) Edited to add:  Since I wrote this, you have clarified that you had an over-exposed image that had stars.  If this is so, that exposure time HAD to have been several seconds or even minutes long (like Kiwi said, thousands or tens-of-thousands of times longer than daylight photography).  If your "underexposed" companion had 1/10 of the exposure time (say, 3 seconds instead of 30 seconds - I'm assuming that if it was a nighttime image the aperture would have been wide-open at f1.4 to f2.8 with a high ISO) it could certainly have latent star images on it, but this is totally irrelevant to photographs at at f11 & 1/250th on ISO160.

It keeps coming back to that question:  How do we establish whether or not what you are seeing are stars?

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To assume however that they are most definitely, NOT Stars, well, this one has me at odds with what I know and believe.  There are blues greens and reds and trails and irregular shapes.  You really need to see for yourself. 

I have looked at your processed image, and also three separate high-resolution scans of the relevant frames.  The 2349x2379 pixel images at The Project Apollo Archive are heavily processed to make them prettier (which is why they're my favorite ;) ).  The Apollo Image Atlas has 3900x3900 cropped-to-the-frame scans with much less processing.  The Gateway to Astronaut Photography of the Earth (which, despite its name also includes the Apollo Lunar images) has 4400x4600 uncropped scans that have had no processing other than the scan itself.  In both of the latter scans, the resolution is high enough to see the film grain.
Interestingly, all of the scans show the same dots in the sky (plus a nice blue one I found in a black surface shadow in the foreground).  This indicates the artifacts are probably on the original transparency.  However...

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I'm now curious as to the said 'artifacts' that are revealed in the black space.[/url]

You say that, but I've seen little attempt on your part to pursue this in detail.  So far, you have only identified two possibilities:
1.)  They are stars.
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To me they look like Stars (Stars=Planets, Galaxies, Nebulae etc.)
I've been doing amateur astronomy and photography for 40+ years and I say they do not look like that.
You already pointed out in your original post that the positions of the artifacts are not consistent from frame to frame.  Thus, your own evidence argues against the possibility.  The science of your profession also definitively disallows what you claim.  I do not understand why you persist in pursuing this.

2.)  They are somehow - in some undefined way - evidence that the image is faked.
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At the bottom of what I'm hoping to achieve is the possibility that not all images are REAL...

It has already been pointed out that faking photographs in this way makes no sense in any context.

Oh, and by the way, WHY do you want to "achieve this possibility?   ???
"What makes one step a giant leap is all the steps before."

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #78 on: January 05, 2017, 03:45:27 PM »
Tell you what.  there are 3 dots on the original image to the right of centre. 

What are they?  I'm gonna take a stab that everyone will say they're dust?  Would I be correct?

Prove to me it's Dust!

I can't prove it's Not, so I need educated people with the knowledge I don't have to show to me how and why it's either obvious, absurd, or beyond Physics for them to be anything other then dust.

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2017, 04:01:01 PM »
Firstly Count, I've been backwards and forwards here over the same issues.  You're right, and I'm done in.  This thread first started with me being corrected for a typo!  I've been riding a shit storm since.  Chances are I asked for it.  Duly noted.  Now can we move on?

You've posted some great points there as have others. 

I need to reset this to my latter comments.  Most recent even.  I am a Professional Photographer.  This was just a statment so you would know I know how to use Photoshop, was compression is, what jpeg artifacts are, what RAW is etc etc.......It does not, nor was it to suggest I am a scientist or a professional Astro Photographer.  I hope this is clear.

Even though I AM a Professional Tog I 've no idea at all how a Blad operates at 160iso @ f11 for 25th sec on the fecking Moon.  This is the reason for my post!!!

Other than what you have read, can you categorically tell me you know for sure that those images were taken on moon?  If you can say yes, then.....well, I don't know.  you see I have a different philosophy and I do question everythng.  It makes my life and decision making very difficult.  I may even be Autistic, I have no idea.  I get dissed all the time.  i don't take it personally.  If it's not on topic however, the nI have no time for it as I'm not learning anything.  I didn't learn Photography from a book you see.  I learned it by doing it.  Reading a book and applying the principle in practice are not the same thing.  However.....

You're correct, not all cameras, lenses, stock are equal.  a 400 illford will process different than a 400 exctachrome etc. but this is remnant knowledge from my old college days and dark rooms.

Are you suggesting that there is no extra information in those Apollo images?  you're suggesting that I cannot take a photo in the dark, and over expose inthe lab to reveal detail in the shadows?

I've asked this already.  There are 3 points of light in one of those images.  Place to the right off centre.  Can we prove they are not stars?  Providing it's not an opinion but a fact that can be proven, it's probably about time I put this to bed.

I have enjoyed it though.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #80 on: January 05, 2017, 04:05:05 PM »
I don't have it.  Possibly taken in 2010.  I've lost over 100gb of data due a HDD failure.  This image is taken from my FB page.  It's all I have of it.  It's not a very long exposure but you can see it starting to trail.  It's not cropped either If I remember.  I had a big lens back then.

In order to get trails at that focal length you will have needed many seconds of exposure. Probably, and this is just a guestimate, 20 seconds. Even with a long exposure and a digital sensor you barely capture any colour. Bear in mind, altering a digital image in Photoshop is *fundamentally* different from trying to enhance a JPEG compressed scan of a negative. The principles aren't even in the same country let alone being the same game.

You try to assert that what you are seeing in your "enhancement" of the Apollo scans is real data colour. It is not.
I have digital negatives that reveal stars if I push the levels. 
So what?
A digital RAW image of a night sky can contain masses of data hidden in the histogram. This data can be brought out by stretching the histogram- this is one of the simplest and most fundamental process that we use when processing night-time image. Your assertion is that stretching the histogram of a compressed JPEG scan of an analogue image is similar. It is not I cannot emphasis this enough. Using lossy compression discards the data that exists in the dark parts of the image. Once it is gone, it cannot be replaced no matter how hard you stretch the image.
Have a read of this short paper that i wrote some time ago to demonstrate this very principle.
https://app.box.com/s/jz91es28dikhzopn2qu6igun18yhxvfg
Secondly, the data has to be there in the first place. It is unlikely that any star data was captured in a short exposure.


No, I am by no means a Astronomical Photographer.  However, it doesn't matter.  The principles of capturing an image are the same. 
That's an argument based on ignorance. I AM an "astronomical photographer" and I can categorically tell you that the principles are not the same. They are not even similar. It is one of my regular assertions that knowledge of daytime photography actually hinders people when they start astro-photography as the principles are so different.

When we look at the sky we say 'Wow, look at all the stars....'  We don't say 'wow, look at all the gaseous planets, nebulae, galaxies and.....(limited Vocab-fill in the spaces).
Again an argument from ignorance. Your inability to frame your point should not be taken as veracity of that point. The exact opposite in fact- your inability to frame your point highlights how little you know. If you wanted to learn something then this place is full of people that are very, very expert in all manner of fields. There are people who have worked in professional photography for years, experts in photogrammetric analysis, people who have spent their careers in building, designing and launching spacecraft.

For your end it seems there's nothing to learn.
On the contrary, one of the reasons why I have been reading this board for *years* is that every time I come on here I learn something new.  The depth of knowledge here can sometimes be staggering. I can only hope that in some small way I can contribute a little.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 04:08:07 PM by Zakalwe »
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #81 on: January 05, 2017, 04:06:31 PM »
My idea was to simply put some thought into what I believed to be stars.  I have digital negatives that reveal stars if I push the levels.  A fair assumption I think.  I still don't believe they aren't Stars.  (I used Stars=etc. as a way of simply generalising artifacts, only to get another correction on what a star is!!)  When we look at the sky we say 'Wow, look at all the stars....'  We don't say 'wow, look at all the gaseous planets, nebulae, galaxies and.....(limited Vocab-fill in the spaces).

Here is the main issue I have with the "stars" you claim to be seeing.

The colour films used were (AFAIK) Kodak Ektachrome SO-68 and Kodak Ektachrome SO-121. IIRC both film have low ASA ratings (less than 125). The exposure times were also very short, typically 1/250th, at ƒ/5.6 for objects in shadow and ƒ/11 for objects in the sun. This is NOWHERE NEAR enough time for even the brightest stars to be recorded on the film emulsion. You can try this yourself (I have). Take a 100ASA film and load it in your camera. Go out to a dark sky location, and snap off a few photos of the sky at 250/f5.6. Even if you include α CMa (Sirius) in your field of view, you will get NOTHING on your film. No amount of messing with tone curves or levels or brightness/contrast will "bring up" anything because there is nothing there to bring up. All you will reveal is grain on the film and noise from the scanning process. There will be NO image data there whatseover.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 04:11:30 PM by smartcooky »
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #82 on: January 05, 2017, 04:09:34 PM »
Why do I want to achieve this possibility.??

I am on the fence regarding the truth behind the space program.  I need not go into detail.  My statement about my 'friend' is true.  I've already proved, but he won't see it, that the reason Neil A is illuminated is because of reflected light from the moon surface.  He doesn't care.  This 'friend' is real.  IF I could prove that there are stars revealed in the images, then I could show him.  However.  While hoping to prove it, I discovered what I believed to be an anomaly with the images.  This was, but not limited to, what i believed to be Stars.  however, the shadows did not change in the foreground, but the night sky behind was completely different.

This suggested that the foreground was lit artificially on earth, and the night sky continued to move as normal in the black sky.  That's it!  I saw something that got my attention, now I'm trying to prove it true or False.

Offline Apollo 957

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #83 on: January 05, 2017, 04:15:26 PM »
Other than what you have read, can you categorically tell me you know for sure that those images were taken on moon?  If you can say yes, then.....well, I don't know. 

It's an all or nothing thing. There's little point in querying the validity of these two photos without questioning ALL the others, from all Apollo missions. If these two are false, but all the others genuine, it doesn't matter a fig what we're discussing here, for if the others are genuine, men were genuinely on the Moon.

Everything else associated with the missions confirms the astronauts to have been there, including third-party confirmations from multiple countries, and from amateur and professional sources. So what if two photos out of thousands have issues?


you see I have a different philosophy and I do question everythng.

I really don't think you do. I'll bet you get up in the morning, turn on the light, draw some water, and take it for granted that all the processes behind the supply of electricity and water to your home are valid. I'll wager you don't question these at all.

I'll wager you buy produce and foodstuffs from your local store without any consideration of their sources and/or provenance. I'll wager you drink at your local bar with not one thought as to how the beer reached you.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #84 on: January 05, 2017, 04:19:54 PM »
No other proof other than my supposed ignorance to physics, photography, or critical analysis has been put forward.

So now I ask you, the reader of this.  Prove to me that they are not!

No, it doesn't work that way. Proving a negative is not possible. You claim they are stars, and nothing besides 'they look like stars to me' has been provided to support your assertion. I have already explained why they cannot be stars because it would not be possible for them to have moved in the way you say they have if they were indeed stars, and people have provided the explanation of why the camera used could not have captured them with the exposure settings that would have to have been used to correctly expose the foreground.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #85 on: January 05, 2017, 04:21:48 PM »
I don't have it.  Possibly taken in 2010.  I've lost over 100gb of data due a HDD failure.  This image is taken from my FB page.  It's all I have of it.  It's not a very long exposure but you can see it starting to trail.  It's not cropped either If I remember.  I had a big lens back then.

In order to get trails at that focal length you will have needed many seconds of exposure. Probably, and this is just a guestimate, 20 seconds. Even with a long exposure and a digital sensor you barely capture any colour. Bear in mind, altering a digital image in Photoshop is *fundamentally* different from trying to enhance a JPEG compressed scan of a negative. The principles aren't even in the same country let alone being the same game.

You try to assert that what you are seeing in your "enhancement" of the Apollo scans is real data colour. It is not.
I have digital negatives that reveal stars if I push the levels. 
So what?
A digital RAW image of a night sky can contain masses of data hidden in the histogram. This data can be brought out by stretching the histogram- this is one of the simplest and most fundamental process that we use when processing night-time image. Your assertion is that stretching the histogram of a compressed JPEG scan of an analogue image is similar. It is not I cannot emphasis this enough. Using lossy compression discards the data that exists in the dark parts of the image. Once it is gone, it cannot be replaced no matter how hard you stretch the image.
Have a read of this short paper that i wrote some time ago to demonstrate this very principle.
https://app.box.com/s/jz91es28dikhzopn2qu6igun18yhxvfg
Secondly, the data has to be there in the first place. It is unlikely that any star data was captured in a short exposure.


No, I am by no means a Astronomical Photographer.  However, it doesn't matter.  The principles of capturing an image are the same. 
That's an argument based on ignorance. I AM an "astronomical photographer" and I can categorically tell you that the principles are not the same. They are not even similar. It is one of my regular assertions that knowledge of daytime photography actually hinders people when they start astro-photography as the principles are so different.

When we look at the sky we say 'Wow, look at all the stars....'  We don't say 'wow, look at all the gaseous planets, nebulae, galaxies and.....(limited Vocab-fill in the spaces).
Again an argument from ignorance. Your inability to frame your point should not be taken as veracity of that point. The exact opposite in fact- your inability to frame your point highlights how little you know. If you wanted to learn something then this place is full of people that are very, very expert in all manner of fields. There are people who have worked in professional photography for years, experts in photogrammetric analysis, people who have spent their careers in building, designing and launching spacecraft.

For your end it seems there's nothing to learn.
On the contrary, one of the reasons why I have been reading this board for *years* is that every time I come on here I learn something new.  The depth of knowledge here can sometimes be staggering. I can only hope that in some small way I can contribute a little.

OK, this is cutting into my life a lot now.

I can shoot at iso 125,000 for a fraction of the time and remove the noise to reveal only the brightest of stars, so your statement is FALSE.

I appreciate it's not real colour from the Jpeg and know fully what it means to have a RAW neg and a heavily compressed Jpeg with all the data removed.  How many times do I need to say I'm a Tog?

I don't think you understand what Principle means regarding a world view of any application.

My ability to frame points is my lack of intent to spell it all out.  I'm relying a lot of instinct and general interpretation on your (all) behalf.  It's obviously not happening.  I can't be expected to offer info to several individuals I know nothing about.  If you want to know me better or understand where I am coming from please be more inquiring and less assumptious.

I'm not well versed in how you all manage to copy and paste text or whatever.  I'm not actually a forum Troll, so this is new to me.

I've ran out of energy.

Can you prove to me that the 3 dots in the original image are NOT anything but dust, or is the answer inthe collective knowledge you have all aquired from being on the moon with your Blad?

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #86 on: January 05, 2017, 04:23:58 PM »
If what you have said above can be considered as Fact, and I believe it to be, then how come the stars move?

Still hung up on them being stars. If everything said can be considered fact, then the fact that they objects do move shows they are not stars.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #87 on: January 05, 2017, 04:24:33 PM »
Other than what you have read, can you categorically tell me you know for sure that those images were taken on moon?  If you can say yes, then.....well, I don't know. 

It's an all or nothing thing. There's little point in querying the validity of these two photos without questioning ALL the others, from all Apollo missions. If these two are false, but all the others genuine, it doesn't matter a fig what we're discussing here, for if the others are genuine, men were genuinely on the Moon.

Everything else associated with the missions confirms the astronauts to have been there, including third-party confirmations from multiple countries, and from amateur and professional sources. So what if two photos out of thousands have issues?


you see I have a different philosophy and I do question everythng.

I really don't think you do. I'll bet you get up in the morning, turn on the light, draw some water, and take it for granted that all the processes behind the supply of electricity and water to your home are valid. I'll wager you don't question these at all.

I'll wager you buy produce and foodstuffs from your local store without any consideration of their sources and/or provenance. I'll wager you drink at your local bar with not one thought as to how the beer reached you.

Dear me, another one that assumes too much.

I no longer shop at supermarkets as the packaging upsets me.  I oinly buy organic and locally.  Faliing that organic without packaging from sustainable sources....

In fact, wager all you like.  You'de be broke by the end of the day wioth you assumptions about me.  You're way off.

Why would you even go there?

Offline Apollo 957

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #88 on: January 05, 2017, 04:26:43 PM »
I am on the fence regarding the truth behind the space program.

Which one? Apollo was a different program from Gemini, which is in turn a different program from Voyager, Huygens-Cassini, etc. Are you on the fence regarding them all?


...  suggested that the foreground was lit artificially on earth, and the night sky continued to move as normal in the black sky.  That's it!  I saw something that got my attention, now I'm trying to prove it true or False.

For this to be the case, the astronauts would have to be out in the open, with a lit foreground, and the night sky of Earth behind them. Yet, on the thousands of Apollo photographs, not a hint of - rain, wind, snow, or any other atmospheric disturbance. Not one. How likely is it that none of these (supposedly) staged events on Earth were disturbed by the weather?

Consider when the lunar EVAs took place. At these times, was there any one place on Earth that could have been the site of this staged filming, or would there have to have been multiple sites?

etc

etc

Offline Icarus1

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Re: Moon pics static shadows and moving stars.
« Reply #89 on: January 05, 2017, 04:27:42 PM »
If what you have said above can be considered as Fact, and I believe it to be, then how come the stars move?

Still hung up on them being stars. If everything said can be considered fact, then the fact that they objects do move shows they are not stars.

Sigh.....No, it's doesn't!

It proves, all other things being true, that if the stars are real, the photo's are fake!  If the shadow doesn't move inthe foreground it means 1 of two things.  The image were taken moments apart, or the light is in a fixed position on earth and nothing hs moved, but the sky.  Until it's proven they are not stars, it's all open.  To me at least.