Radiation

[timfinch]

So tell me AtomicDog, does the article meet your criteria for proof?

Can you show me where "alpha laden particles" appears in that article?

I am no help with comprehension.  After school age it is irreparable.

Allow me to help you. Alpha particles are PRODUCED by heavier nuclei. They do NOT exist as separate entities until they are EMITTED by nuclei, and because they travel at thousands of miles per second upon emission, they ONLY exist for fractions of a second until they are absorbed by another atom or they absorb free electrons to become neutral helium.

It is impossible for ANYTHING to be LADEN with alpha particles.  In science, words have meaning. Your words show me that your knowledge of nuclear physics is lacking.

So what you are saying is the Kreep is safe if you hold it in your mouth for a couple of seconds?

No, I'm saying that kreep is not LADEN with alpha particles.

Point blank.  Is kreep a ingestion health hazard to astronauts?  Either it is or it isn't.  Why play the "laden" game?  Call it what it is.

Because words have meaning. Your words indicate a poor understanding of the subject you are discussing.

Man up and answer the question.  Is Moon dust (Kreep) radioactive and an ingestion hazard to astronauts?  Stop deflecting and make a stand.

[AtomicDog]

So tell me AtomicDog, does the article meet your criteria for proof?

Can you show me where "alpha laden particles" appears in that article?

I am no help with comprehension.  After school age it is irreparable.

Allow me to help you. Alpha particles are PRODUCED by heavier nuclei. They do NOT exist as separate entities until they are EMITTED by nuclei, and because they travel at thousands of miles per second upon emission, they ONLY exist for fractions of a second until they are absorbed by another atom or they absorb free electrons to become neutral helium.

It is impossible for ANYTHING to be LADEN with alpha particles.  In science, words have meaning. Your words show me that your knowledge of nuclear physics is lacking.

So what you are saying is the Kreep is safe if you hold it in your mouth for a couple of seconds?

No, I'm saying that kreep is not LADEN with alpha particles.

Point blank.  Is kreep a ingestion health hazard to astronauts?  Either it is or it isn't.  Why play the "laden" game?  Call it what it is.

Because words have meaning. Your words indicate a poor understanding of the subject you are discussing.

Man up and answer the question.  Is Moon dust (Kreep) radioactive and an ingestion hazard to astronauts?  Stop deflecting and make a stand.

"Alpha laden particles". That issue hasn't been settled yet. You haven't explained why you used that erroneous term.

[raven]

Point blank.  Is kreep a ingestion health hazard to astronauts?  Either it is or it isn't.  Why play the "laden" game?  Call it what it is.

Over what time period? A coal miner doesn't develop coalworker's pneumoconiosis, commonly known as black lung, over only a couple shifts, but it's still a significant occupational hazard that kills thousands.  Just because something might be a potential danger to ISS length stays or longer in a future manned base or colony does not mean it was a danger to the weekend camping trip stays on the lunar surface of Apollo.

[timfinch]

So tell me AtomicDog, does the article meet your criteria for proof?

Can you show me where "alpha laden particles" appears in that article?

I am no help with comprehension.  After school age it is irreparable.

Allow me to help you. Alpha particles are PRODUCED by heavier nuclei. They do NOT exist as separate entities until they are EMITTED by nuclei, and because they travel at thousands of miles per second upon emission, they ONLY exist for fractions of a second until they are absorbed by another atom or they absorb free electrons to become neutral helium.

It is impossible for ANYTHING to be LADEN with alpha particles.  In science, words have meaning. Your words show me that your knowledge of nuclear physics is lacking.

So what you are saying is the Kreep is safe if you hold it in your mouth for a couple of seconds?

No, I'm saying that kreep is not LADEN with alpha particles.

Point blank.  Is kreep a ingestion health hazard to astronauts?  Either it is or it isn't.  Why play the "laden" game?  Call it what it is.

Because words have meaning. Your words indicate a poor understanding of the subject you are discussing.

Man up and answer the question.  Is Moon dust (Kreep) radioactive and an ingestion hazard to astronauts?  Stop deflecting and make a stand.

"Alpha laden particles". That issue hasn't been settled yet. You haven't explained why you used that erroneous term.

I used it because it was appropriate but I don't have to.  If it is a road block to you acknowledging that kreep is radioactive then by all means, I withdraw the term.  Consider it unsaid.  Now what have you got?

[timfinch]

Point blank.  Is kreep a ingestion health hazard to astronauts?  Either it is or it isn't.  Why play the "laden" game?  Call it what it is.

Over what time period? A coal miner doesn't develop coalworker's pneumoconiosis, commonly known as black lung, over only a couple shifts, but it's still a significant occupational hazard that kills thousands.  Just because something might be a potential danger to ISS length stays or longer in a future manned base or colony does not mean it was a danger to the weekend camping trip stays on the lunar surface of Apollo.

Shouldn't you be asking about an amount of kreep?  Is any amount not a carcinogen?  How much would you be willing to ingest?

[timfinch]

KREEP
The lunar geochemical component KREEP contains trace amounts of the radioactive elements Thorium and Uranium. Regolith dust formed from this rock is a serious health hazard.

The radiation given off is Alpha particles (helium nuclei) and they do not penetrate very effectively. The direct radiation is stopped by any pressure vessel wall and even a well designed layer of spacesuit material. The problem is that if the dust is ingested into the human body, the particles will lay directly on lung or intestine tissue and are carcinogenic. Ingestion of the dust must therefore be rigorously limited.

KREEP is concentrated in the Oceanus Procellarum (Ocean of Storms) and Mare Imbrium (Sea of Rains) with a major concentration south of Crater Copernicus. This region covers about 40% of the Earth-facing side of the Moon. Based on the small number of lunar samples returned, low KREEP regions measure 8% or less of the radioactive elements in their dust compared to the high KREEP regions. With current technology, the entire high KREEP region is not acceptable for any long-term human settlement or manned mining operation.

The high KREEP region contains many sites of interest to science, particularly those of volcanic origin. Even short scientific expeditions there will require special procedures to prevent ingestion of dust and the removal of dust from all returning equipment.

Radon Gas
Another source of dangerous radiation is the radon gas that is created in the decay of trace amounts of uranium found naturally in lunar rocks. This gas is very heavy and concentrates in low areas. This type of radiation is easily stopped by even a thin layer of material, but radon is carcinogenic if ingested directly into the body.

Even though sensitive scientific equipment has been able to detect radon on Luna, the quantity of radon gas is such that it can be ignored. The lunar atmosphere is so thin that the most massive component, Argon, is present in only 30,000 particles per cubic centimeter, that is 2 trillionths of a gram per cubic meter. Radon is so scarce that it is not even mentioned in the list of components in the lunar atmosphere article. See the Moon Fact Sheet from NASA.

Radon has also been detected from lunar outgassing events.

http://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Radiation_Problem

[timfinch]

The half-life of uranium-238 is about 4.5 billion years, uranium-235 about 700 million years, and uranium-234 about 25 thousand years. Uranium atoms decay into other atoms, or radionuclides, that are also radioactive and commonly called "decay products.  Although thorium (90Th) has 6 naturally occurring isotopes, none of these isotopes are stable; however, one isotope, 232Th, is relatively stable, with a half-life of 1.405×1010 years, considerably longer than the age of the Earth, and even slightly longer than the generally accepted age of the universe.  I think you should be able to pick up radioactivity of a lunar space suit after only 50 years, what do you think?

[MBDK]

Man up and answer the question.  Is Moon dust (Kreep) radioactive and an ingestion hazard to astronauts?  Stop deflecting and make a stand.

This coming from a person who complained about semantics.  The answer is yes.  The relation to the Apollo missions is fairly innocuous.  The radioactivity in lunar soil itself is too low to be considered a significant contributor to the total dose and/or dose rates on the surface.  It is definitely too low to be considered a hazard on Earth (save for chance concentrations of materials naturally occurring, which has not been the case for any samples to date).  The same low risk is associated with the Kreep (and not all Moon dust is Kreep).  Your body contains arsenic right now, but not in quantities large enough to be a concern.  There are carcinogens in fried foods, yet many people eat them regularly.

There are risks involved with every aspect of life.  There were risks involved with every aspect of the Apollo missions.  The ones you just brought up are minimal.  You are just trying to change the subject, again.  This time to even more ridiculous levels. 

The facts remain that your original idea that Apollo 11 experienced constant radiation exposures of at least .22mGy/day has been shown to have no factual footing, and the data brought to this discussion actually supports the alternate conclusion.  You are trying to dance away from that poorly thought-out strategy you originally had without admitting your failures.  I don't expect you to, because that would take actual integrity.  You can even fool yourself into thinking you are fooling people on this forum - that's your prerogative.  But just like the data provided in your link - the truth is obvious to everyone else.

[nomuse]

Point blank.  Is kreep a ingestion health hazard to astronauts?  Either it is or it isn't.  Why play the "laden" game?  Call it what it is.

Over what time period? A coal miner doesn't develop coalworker's pneumoconiosis, commonly known as black lung, over only a couple shifts, but it's still a significant occupational hazard that kills thousands.  Just because something might be a potential danger to ISS length stays or longer in a future manned base or colony does not mean it was a danger to the weekend camping trip stays on the lunar surface of Apollo.

Shouldn't you be asking about an amount of kreep?  Is any amount not a carcinogen?  How much would you be willing to ingest?

Are we to re-writing Paracelsus, then? Most keyboard warriors are satisfied enough with o'erturning Einstein.

[timfinch]

Man up and answer the question.  Is Moon dust (Kreep) radioactive and an ingestion hazard to astronauts?  Stop deflecting and make a stand.

This coming from a person who complained about semantics.  The answer is yes.  The relation to the Apollo missions is fairly innocuous.  The radioactivity in lunar soil itself is too low to be considered a significant contributor to the total dose and/or dose rates on the surface.  It is definitely too low to be considered a hazard on Earth (save for chance concentrations of materials naturally occurring, which has not been the case for any samples to date).  The same low risk is associated with the Kreep (and not all Moon dust is Kreep).  Your body contains arsenic right now, but not in quantities large enough to be a concern.  There are carcinogens in fried foods, yet many people eat them regularly.

There are risks involved with every aspect of life.  There were risks involved with every aspect of the Apollo missions.  The ones you just brought up are minimal.  You are just trying to change the subject, again.  This time to even more ridiculous levels. 

The facts remain that your original idea that Apollo 11 experienced constant radiation exposures of at least .22mGy/day has been shown to have no factual footing, and the data brought to this discussion actually supports the alternate conclusion.  You are trying to dance away from that poorly thought-out strategy you originally had without admitting your failures.  I don't expect you to, because that would take actual integrity.  You can even fool yourself into thinking you are fooling people on this forum - that's your prerogative.  But just like the data provided in your link - the truth is obvious to everyone else.

Maybe you can explain what they mean when they say "Ingestion of the dust must therefore be rigorously limited."?  Does that mean suck up as much as you can hold?  You have no corroborating data from solar cycle 20.  The data you do have list is as .24 mgy/day to 6 mgy/day.  If you have something that you have concealed then please share it with the group.  If you insist on using CraTer data then I am good with that also.  I have said I will accept any 10 day averaged window that you are anyone else will choose.

[raven]

Point blank.  Is kreep a ingestion health hazard to astronauts?  Either it is or it isn't.  Why play the "laden" game?  Call it what it is.

Over what time period? A coal miner doesn't develop coalworker's pneumoconiosis, commonly known as black lung, over only a couple shifts, but it's still a significant occupational hazard that kills thousands.  Just because something might be a potential danger to ISS length stays or longer in a future manned base or colony does not mean it was a danger to the weekend camping trip stays on the lunar surface of Apollo.

Shouldn't you be asking about an amount of kreep?  Is any amount not a carcinogen?  How much would you be willing to ingest?

Lots of things are carcinogens. Some forms (see page 4 of 5 of the pdf) of sawdust are  carcinogens or suspected carcinogens, but I swept out a wood working shop as part of a summer job with no protection, and I don't yet have lung cancer. Just because something is a carcinogen does not mean  any level of exposure equals 'Gonna get Big C for certain like'.

[timfinch]

I did mention because the detectors are sensitized for specific types of radiation then it seems logical that a summation of the detectors would be representative of biological effect.  So add them up and average out the 10 day window and tell me how much you like me now.

[timfinch]

Point blank.  Is kreep a ingestion health hazard to astronauts?  Either it is or it isn't.  Why play the "laden" game?  Call it what it is.

Over what time period? A coal miner doesn't develop coalworker's pneumoconiosis, commonly known as black lung, over only a couple shifts, but it's still a significant occupational hazard that kills thousands.  Just because something might be a potential danger to ISS length stays or longer in a future manned base or colony does not mean it was a danger to the weekend camping trip stays on the lunar surface of Apollo.

Shouldn't you be asking about an amount of kreep?  Is any amount not a carcinogen?  How much would you be willing to ingest?

Lots of things are carcinogens. Some forms (see page 4 of 5 of the pdf) of sawdust are  carcinogens or suspected carcinogens, but I swept out a wood working shop as part of a summer job with no protection, and I don't yet have lung cancer. Just because something is a carcinogen does not mean  any level of exposure equals 'Gonna get Big C for certain like'.

So how do you think they should work in the presence of moon dust.  Do you think they would enter into the people compartment and take dust "laden" space suits off without first decontaminating or removing them in a decontamination chamber?  Or do you think that astronauts are expendable so they didn't worry about it?

[AtomicDog]

So tell me AtomicDog, does the article meet your criteria for proof?

Can you show me where "alpha laden particles" appears in that article?

I am no help with comprehension.  After school age it is irreparable.

Allow me to help you. Alpha particles are PRODUCED by heavier nuclei. They do NOT exist as separate entities until they are EMITTED by nuclei, and because they travel at thousands of miles per second upon emission, they ONLY exist for fractions of a second until they are absorbed by another atom or they absorb free electrons to become neutral helium.

It is impossible for ANYTHING to be LADEN with alpha particles.  In science, words have meaning. Your words show me that your knowledge of nuclear physics is lacking.

So what you are saying is the Kreep is safe if you hold it in your mouth for a couple of seconds?

No, I'm saying that kreep is not LADEN with alpha particles.

Point blank.  Is kreep a ingestion health hazard to astronauts?  Either it is or it isn't.  Why play the "laden" game?  Call it what it is.

Because words have meaning. Your words indicate a poor understanding of the subject you are discussing.

Man up and answer the question.  Is Moon dust (Kreep) radioactive and an ingestion hazard to astronauts?  Stop deflecting and make a stand.

"Alpha laden particles". That issue hasn't been settled yet. You haven't explained why you used that erroneous term.

I used it because it was appropriate but I don't have to.  If it is a road block to you acknowledging that kreep is radioactive then by all means, I withdraw the term.  Consider it unsaid.  Now what have you got?

I don't want you to withdraw the term , I want you to explain why you used it, especially since you still think that it was appropriate.

[raven]

Off topic, but the nested quotes remind me of a Star Wars-esque opening crawl.
Let's call it . . .  Episode 4F: A New Dope.