Radiation

[Luke Pemberton]

The ************ really helped a lot.

Looking at your posts, I'm assuming that is was verbal ************?

Is this an attempt at moderation suicide I see before me?

[bknight]

We know that the VAB is 37000 miles long

Along the geomagentic equator maybe, but as you have been told and shown repeatedly, the Apollo spacecraft did not take that route (indeed it was virtually impossible for it to do so due to the different inclinations ot the orbit and the geomagentic plane) so why do you think using the full thickness of the belt is valid?

Actually a good question.  I used it because we all know the VAB expansds thousands of miles during Solar max and not having any reference I thought it a fairly conservative estimate.

Jason with regard to this 37000 figure do you know of a 3d picture or chat which shows the 3d path the vehicles took to transverse the edges. I have seen many 2d's but not 3d

Ben here is the video

[Luke Pemberton]

I explained this to those that were on time to class already.  The VAB expands during solar maximums by thousands of miles and even a third ring is created.

Ring? Do you mean torus. See the difference between me being able to visualise in 3D and you default to 2D?

There's even a suggestion that the second torus is made of two smaller belts, if I recall the literature correctly. Oh, see what I did there. I referred to literature as I'm a little bit of an expert in this area. You on the other hand didn't even know the outer belts mainly consist of electrons. That is lamentable.

So how did the CM hull perform against the electrons in the outer belt for different energies across the flux? I'll give you an helping hand, you're going to have to perform an integrated flux calculation here.

[timfinch]

Why concentrate on electrons when the share territory with protons?

... because the Apollo craft followed a trajectory that skirted the outer belts. The main flux in the outer belts are due to electrons. It's a bit like someone firing 1000 paintballs at you, 999 are green and 1 are red. The electrons are the green ones.

Now, how does the shielding perform against the electron flux at the electron energies that are relevant to the problem? You need to perform an integrated flux attenuated against shielding at 8 g cm^-2.

I am not the brightest candle in the candelera ( yes I am but I am trying to be modest) but the TLI is an elliptical orbit somewhere around 30% off the equatorial plane or 15% if you are using the lunar plane so realizing this elliptical orbit would be like slicing diagonally through the proverbial donut, just exactly how do you think they "Skirted" the VAB?

[bknight]

...
I explained this to those that were on time to class already.  The VAB expands during solar maximums by thousands of miles and even a third ring is created.  I thought it a conservative estimate to simply use the the stated size of 37000 miles for computation.  If I had access to better data I could accomplish miracles considering my mental acumen is exceptionally great and I stayedd at a Holiday Express once.

Where is there any radiation computations and quit being condescending to me, I don't appreciate it. 

It matters not that you show the VARB expands with solar maximums, Apollo DID NOT TRAVEL the width of the belts, they skirt it, remember the video, remember the 2-D image you posted showing their path?  The craft was outside the VARB after about 2 hours, come to grips with reality not your fantasy land ideas.
Now show your radiation computations.

[benparry]

We know that the VAB is 37000 miles long

Along the geomagentic equator maybe, but as you have been told and shown repeatedly, the Apollo spacecraft did not take that route (indeed it was virtually impossible for it to do so due to the different inclinations ot the orbit and the geomagentic plane) so why do you think using the full thickness of the belt is valid?

Actually a good question.  I used it because we all know the VAB expansds thousands of miles during Solar max and not having any reference I thought it a fairly conservative estimate.

Jason with regard to this 37000 figure do you know of a 3d picture or chat which shows the 3d path the vehicles took to transverse the edges. I have seen many 2d's but not 3d

Ben here is the video

brill thanks for that

[Luke Pemberton]

I am not the brightest candle in the candelera ( yes I am but I am trying to be modest) but the TLI is an elliptical orbit somewhere around 30% off the equatorial plane or 15% if you are using the lunar plane so realizing this elliptical orbit would be like slicing diagonally through the proverbial donut, just exactly how do you think they "Skirted" the VAB?

The point is that the Apollo craft did not pass through the most intense inner proton regions. It passed through the outer belt which is mainly populated electrons, which you have only just found out if I recall.

Now, how did the hull perform against the electrons across the range of energies for different electron fluxes? You cannot cite the unshielded dose.

[bknight]

I explained this to those that were on time to class already.  The VAB expands during solar maximums by thousands of miles and even a third ring is created.

Ring? Do you mean torus. See the difference between me being able to visualise in 3D and you default to 2D?

There's even a suggestion that the second torus is made of two smaller belts, if I recall the literature correctly. Oh, see what I did there. I referred to literature as I'm a little bit of an expert in this area. You on the other hand didn't even know the outer belts mainly consist of electrons. That is lamentable.

So how did the CM hull perform against the electrons in the outer belt for different energies across the flux? I'll give you an helping hand, you're going to have to perform an integrated flux calculation here.

Nice catch Luke I completely looked over that part.  I've been attempting to get it across to tim that A11 was out of the second torus by about 2 hours, not the 4.5 he keeps trying to invent, but you know that.

[timfinch]

I explained this to those that were on time to class already.  The VAB expands during solar maximums by thousands of miles and even a third ring is created.

Ring? Do you mean torus. See the difference between me being able to visualise in 3D and you default to 2D?

There's even a suggestion that the second torus is made of two smaller belts, if I recall the literature correctly. Oh, see what I did there. I referred to literature as I'm a little bit of an expert in this area. You on the other hand didn't even know the outer belts mainly consist of electrons. That is lamentable.

So how did the CM hull perform against the electrons in the outer belt for different energies across the flux? I'll give you an helping hand, you're going to have to perform an integrated flux calculation here.

Allow my little Friend at NASA help you with the math.  They did this for children so I am fully confident that you will have no problems with it.  We can use NASA's figures if you like or your personal ones if it makes you feel any better.  https://spacemath.gsfc.nasa.gov/earth/3Page7.pdf

[LunarOrbit]

Is anyone keeping score?  It seems like I am winning.  Am I winning?

Umm... is that you, Mr. Trump? You seem to have a skewed interpretation of what it means to be winning.

I am easily confused but didn't Trump win the presidential race?

Yes, you are easily confused. Especially by graphs.

And Trump did not win in the way that matters. He won because the United States has the Electoral College... which is basically like a sports handicap for politicians who can't win otherwise. It's like me beating Michael Jordan at basketball... but only because every ball I get in the net is worth 1000 points while his are worth 1. But that's off topic, so I'll slap myself on the wrist and stop now.

I feel your pain.  I was the same way about George Bush.  I resorted to recreational pharmaceuticals, alcohol and ************.  The ************ really helped a lot.

If you continue making crude comments like that you will be banned.

[Luke Pemberton]

Allow my little Friend at NASA help you with the math.  They did this for children so I am fully confident that you will have no problems with it.  We can use NASA's figures if you like or your personal ones if it makes you feel any better.

Is this the one you used a CosmoQuest, counting the squares?

[MBDK]

If I had access to better data I could accomplish miracles considering my mental acumen is exceptionally great and I stayedd at a Holiday Express once.

What you consider mental acumen, has been shown to be more mental "inaccu-meh".  Now, please address the effect of Apollo shielding during its VAB journey. 

I also want you to examine the lens dose behind 0.22 g/cm2 Al  on graph of figure 2 from http://prediccs.sr.unh.edu/papers/schwadron2011JE003978.pdf for the dose expected during the Apollo missions.  And before you make some ignorant complaint about why I chose that dose data, I am including THIS quote from that reference:

"The lens dose behind 0.22 g/cm2 Al is an excellent proxy for the combined dose from the D1-D2 detector [Spence et al., 2010] of the CRaTER instrument.  Calculation of the dose is detailed in Appendix A"

[Luke Pemberton]

If you continue making crude comments like that you will be banned.

If need be I apologise for responding to it and my comment above it being verbal. My quote was based on an old Marillion song. In the context of my reply it's another term for describing double speak and the evasion of the point we are seeing here.

[MBDK]

I explained this to those that were on time to class already.  The VAB expands during solar maximums by thousands of miles and even a third ring is created.

Ring? Do you mean torus. See the difference between me being able to visualise in 3D and you default to 2D?

There's even a suggestion that the second torus is made of two smaller belts, if I recall the literature correctly. Oh, see what I did there. I referred to literature as I'm a little bit of an expert in this area. You on the other hand didn't even know the outer belts mainly consist of electrons. That is lamentable.

So how did the CM hull perform against the electrons in the outer belt for different energies across the flux? I'll give you an helping hand, you're going to have to perform an integrated flux calculation here.

Allow my little Friend at NASA help you with the math.  They did this for children so I am fully confident that you will have no problems with it.  We can use NASA's figures if you like or your personal ones if it makes you feel any better.  https://spacemath.gsfc.nasa.gov/earth/3Page7.pdf

Once again, reading comprehension isn't exactly your forte, is it?  From your latest reference:

"Also, this radiation exposure would be for an astronaut outside the spacecraft during the transit through
the belts. The radiation shielding inside the spacecraft cuts down the 13 Rads/hour exposure so that it is
completely harmless."

So, not only did your reference fail to provide the computational data from the shielding, it made a general statement that completely supports the position that the exposure was of no concern (as mitigated by the shielding and trajectory).

[Luke Pemberton]

"Also, this radiation exposure would be for an astronaut outside the spacecraft during the transit through the belts. The radiation shielding inside the spacecraft cuts down the 13 Rads/hour exposure so that it is completely harmless."

You entertained opening the document? I take off my hat for your patience. He produced the same source at CosmoQuest and it was received with identical rebuke.

The citing of resources that contradict his point is getting embarrassing for Tim.