Author Topic: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch  (Read 203332 times)

Offline jr Knowing

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #390 on: December 24, 2018, 03:52:03 PM »
An RCS engine failed, I believe, twice prior to A11.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #391 on: December 24, 2018, 05:02:21 PM »
An RCS engine failed, I believe, twice prior to A11.

Can you be more specific?  I've been through all the anomaly-report sections for the mission reports from Apollos 4 through 10.  While there are various indications of anomalies in the RCS systems, I see no mention of failure in an RCS jet itself.
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Offline Count Zero

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #392 on: December 24, 2018, 09:27:24 PM »
I don't have references (or time) handy at the moment, but I remember a memoir (Kranz's or Kelly's?) that said Apollo 5's LM lost a thruster quad.
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Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #393 on: December 24, 2018, 10:04:27 PM »
On the sixth day of flouncemas I OCD'd to me,
Six galloping Gishes
Five Duane Damannns!
Four Jarrahs yapping
Three David Percy's
Two talking heads
And a strawman in a pear tree.
Speaking of which, is Duane still actve?

Passed away 2013

I believe I chatted with him in 2015 or 2016 on YT.  Still had the Moon chip on his shoulder and he still didn't like most of the guys on EF.  I guess those guys were too hard on him attempting to point out how wrong he was/is.  He told me everything about me that was on my profile, so could read still.

2013 is supported on many sites.  Obituary here https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/sandiegouniontribune/obituary.aspx?n=duane-t-gish&pid=163795335

Offline AtomicDog

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #394 on: December 24, 2018, 10:33:32 PM »
On the sixth day of flouncemas I OCD'd to me,
Six galloping Gishes
Five Duane Damannns!
Four Jarrahs yapping
Three David Percy's
Two talking heads
And a strawman in a pear tree.
Speaking of which, is Duane still actve?

Passed away 2013

I believe I chatted with him in 2015 or 2016 on YT.  Still had the Moon chip on his shoulder and he still didn't like most of the guys on EF.  I guess those guys were too hard on him attempting to point out how wrong he was/is.  He told me everything about me that was on my profile, so could read still.

2013 is supported on many sites.  Obituary here https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/sandiegouniontribune/obituary.aspx?n=duane-t-gish&pid=163795335


I had assumed that the Duane being referred to was Duane "Straydog" Daman, who used to be a regular on the Education Forum, and who had the worst attitude of any HB I have ever encountered.
"There is no belief, however foolish, that will not gather its faithful adherents who will defend it to the death." - Isaac Asimov

Offline Count Zero

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #395 on: December 25, 2018, 02:02:17 AM »
An RCS engine failed, I believe, twice prior to A11.

Can you be more specific?  I've been through all the anomaly-report sections for the mission reports from Apollos 4 through 10.  While there are various indications of anomalies in the RCS systems, I see no mention of failure in an RCS jet itself.

I found the Apollo 5 Anomaly in the mission report: 

"After abort staging, excessive RCS thruster firings occurred because the LM Digital Autopilot was controlling the RCS firings based on the unstaged, fully-loaded LM mass.  Proper vehicle mass update ground commands were not sent.  This anomaly caused unplanned RCS propellant depletion, early RCS switch-over to the APS propellant tanks, ruptured RCS fuel tank bladder, temperature redline exceedances on quads 1 and 3 and failure of the No. 4-up thruster."

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19700024869

See anomalies 2.1.2 and 2.1.12.

So the problem was not during normal operation of the RCS system, but rather because a control error caused excessive use of the RCS.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 02:04:59 AM by Count Zero »
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Offline bknight

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #396 on: December 25, 2018, 08:19:02 AM »
On the sixth day of flouncemas I OCD'd to me,
Six galloping Gishes
Five Duane Damannns!
Four Jarrahs yapping
Three David Percy's
Two talking heads
And a strawman in a pear tree.
Speaking of which, is Duane still actve?

Passed away 2013

I believe I chatted with him in 2015 or 2016 on YT.  Still had the Moon chip on his shoulder and he still didn't like most of the guys on EF.  I guess those guys were too hard on him attempting to point out how wrong he was/is.  He told me everything about me that was on my profile, so could read still.

2013 is supported on many sites.  Obituary here https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/sandiegouniontribune/obituary.aspx?n=duane-t-gish&pid=163795335
I was referring to Duane Daman(s?) from EF, not Mr. Gish.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline AtomicDog

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #397 on: December 25, 2018, 08:41:29 AM »
An RCS engine failed, I believe, twice prior to A11.

Can you be more specific?  I've been through all the anomaly-report sections for the mission reports from Apollos 4 through 10.  While there are various indications of anomalies in the RCS systems, I see no mention of failure in an RCS jet itself.

I found the Apollo 5 Anomaly in the mission report: 

"After abort staging, excessive RCS thruster firings occurred because the LM Digital Autopilot was controlling the RCS firings based on the unstaged, fully-loaded LM mass.  Proper vehicle mass update ground commands were not sent.  This anomaly caused unplanned RCS propellant depletion, early RCS switch-over to the APS propellant tanks, ruptured RCS fuel tank bladder, temperature redline exceedances on quads 1 and 3 and failure of the No. 4-up thruster."

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19700024869

See anomalies 2.1.2 and 2.1.12.

So the problem was not during normal operation of the RCS system, but rather because a control error caused excessive use of the RCS.

The equivalent of blowing a redlined car engine. When that happens, it's operator error, not the engine's fault.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #398 on: December 25, 2018, 09:48:10 AM »
So the problem was not during normal operation of the RCS system, but rather because a control error caused excessive use of the RCS.

Yes, I saw that.  I didn't count that as a malfunction because it was a consequence of misuse -- "pilot error."  But that's why I asked Jr Knowing to be more specific.  I wanted to know what he was counting as a failure, and a failure of what.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #399 on: December 25, 2018, 11:38:02 AM »
The equivalent of blowing a redlined car engine. When that happens, it's operator error, not the engine's fault.

And a critic might well point out that regardless of cause, you're still down one engine.  And if it happened on a lonely road in the desert -- which there are a lot of where I live -- you'd be seriously in trouble.  So you need a backup engine right?  For redundancy you need at least two of everything, right?

This is where reading the anomaly reports is instructive.  There were problems with the RCS in several Apollo missions, none having to do with the jets themselves.  The problems were either in the propellant feed systems or in the combinatorial logic -- you know, that giant circuit diagram in the ANR that Jr Knowing says isn't technical enough.  The anomaly investigations describe how the crew (if there was one in that mission) was able to switch things around and get the system working again.  This is how we design for robustness without "backups."  The backup capability is there, just not expressed in the way a layman will naturally recognize without examples.  And then you also get to read the reasoning for what they're going to do to fix the problem, because that's what those flights were for.  Sometimes the fix is just procedural.  You just switch things around until the isolation valve unsticks or the propellant gets fed right.  Or in hindsight some engineer says, "Hey, if we ran a line between these two points we could work around this valve if it sticks on the next flight."

Skylab 3 was a different sort of animal.  The poppet got stuck open because a particle got wedged in the valve seat.  This caused a propellant leak.  Isolating the quad (i.e., shutting off the fuel to it upstream) is the right thing to do, and then the pilot just reports that the ship is somewhat harder to control.  This may be what Jr refers to as "instability."  We've been reading it as alleging a sort of uncontrollable instability, which isn't the case.  Docking is a critical maneuver because it requires both positional and attitude control.  That is very hard to do indeed with one whole quad disabled.  For Apollo it was not as dangerous since either vehicle can become the active vehicle for docking.  Apollo LOR profiles included seventeen different contingency plans to accommodate either the CSM or the LM being unable to maneuver.  Skylab docking is different because the CSM has to be the active vehicle in that case.  Alignment for de-orbit wouldn't have been as big a problem because position is not important -- only attitude.

This does raise an issue I had kind of hoped someone would bring up when we were talking about the fairings during boost.  Skylab 3 was the first time something had got stuck in the poppet that couldn't be blown loose by the fluid flow.  The RCS propellant is under fairly high pressure, and normally if a valve doesn't seat because some debris is caught in it, you just pulse the valve until it knocks the debris loose.  The RCS fuel is highly filtered, so the engineers figured that -- against all odds -- some piece of particulate debris had found its way into the jet, past the pre-ignition cup and into the poppet -- and become so embedded in the Teflon gasket that the normal valve-clearing procedure wouldn't work.  So if you watch STS liftoffs, you see the RCS jets covered with Tyvek taped in place.  It keeps out particle debris while the stack is on the pad (i.e., out in the elements).  But the Tyvek breaks loose on the ascent, or is blown free when the jets are first used in space.

But that sort of graceful degradation of control -- where the ship is harder to fly, but you can still dock it -- is commonplace in aerospace.  Let's say a similar thing happens in a Boeing passenger jet, and a bit of gunk jams a control valve or an actuator.  In that case, the mechanical linkage on the affected control surface is designed to shear.  That means in one scenario that the remaining hydraulic systems can still move the control surface, or in other cases that it will be "safely" frozen in place at its last controllable attitude.  You still have roll authority with one aileron out of commission, but it will require additional control actions to maintain pitch stability.  You still have pitch authority with one elevator dead, but at the cost of an unwanted roll moment.  And if you look carefully at many airframes, the rudder is split so that you have two separate rudders.  That's the only place where you need first-order redundancy.
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Offline jr Knowing

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #400 on: December 25, 2018, 01:05:27 PM »
Happy Holidays Everyone,

I checked and I believe I was thinking about Apollo 5 and 9 having significant issues with the RCS's. But looking at the Experience Report it appears the most significant issues/anomalies were with the earlier (unmanned) missions. This report goes through many of the RCS mission anomalies right up to Apollo 11 (which btw had an 18 minute partial failure)  It should be noted A11 was the only mission to that time to employ deflectors. It would interesting to know how some of these prior (less significant) anomalies would have had on a ship with deflectors. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730017174.pdf

Merry Christmas

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #401 on: December 25, 2018, 01:51:57 PM »
Happy Holidays Everyone,

I checked and I believe I was thinking about Apollo 5 and 9 having significant issues with the RCS's. But looking at the Experience Report it appears the most significant issues/anomalies were with the earlier (unmanned) missions. This report goes through many of the RCS mission anomalies right up to Apollo 11 (which btw had an 18 minute partial failure)  It should be noted A11 was the only mission to that time to employ deflectors. It would interesting to know how some of these prior (less significant) anomalies would have had on a ship with deflectors. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730017174.pdf

Merry Christmas

Nice to see you using these reports. Does this one contain enough technical detail for you? Do you now accept that there were no particular problems with the quads being exposed during launch, or is it now your claim that only parts of this report were real and the rest faked? ::)
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Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #402 on: December 25, 2018, 04:23:45 PM »
Happy Holidays Everyone,

Happy Christmas to you too. I hope it's a good one. :

Quote
I checked and I believe I was thinking about Apollo 5 and 9 having significant issues with the RCS's. But looking at the Experience Report it appears the most significant issues/anomalies were with the earlier (unmanned) missions.

There were no earlier LM flights than Apollo 5, or are you also referring to the other RCS systems on the other spaceaftr too?

Quote
It should be noted A11 was the only mission to that time to employ deflectors. It would interesting to know how some of these prior (less significant) anomalies would have had on a ship with deflectors.

I'll ask again, show us the results of using the equation that was in the memo you provided that demsontrate that the LM in solo flight was unstable as a result of those deflectors.

You brought it to the table, you can support it or you can withdraw your claim. The deflectors simply do not introduce an instability except in the very unusual circumstances which are way off nominal flight conditions described in that memo.
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Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #403 on: December 26, 2018, 05:20:44 AM »
Happy Holidays Everyone,

I checked and I believe I was thinking about Apollo 5 and 9 having significant issues with the RCS's. But looking at the Experience Report it appears the most significant issues/anomalies were with the earlier (unmanned) missions. This report goes through many of the RCS mission anomalies right up to Apollo 11 (which btw had an 18 minute partial failure)  It should be noted A11 was the only mission to that time to employ deflectors. It would interesting to know how some of these prior (less significant) anomalies would have had on a ship with deflectors. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730017174.pdf

Merry Christmas

Define 'significant'.

Can you please explain how post-mission reports that identify issues  that were corrected during the missions somehow means that the missions didn't happen?

Have you realised that that the RCS issues identified in the report you linked to were not on the LM?

Offline Von_Smith

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #404 on: December 26, 2018, 09:02:12 AM »
Happy Holidays Everyone,

I checked and I believe I was thinking about Apollo 5 and 9 having significant issues with the RCS's. But looking at the Experience Report it appears the most significant issues/anomalies were with the earlier (unmanned) missions. This report goes through many of the RCS mission anomalies right up to Apollo 11 (which btw had an 18 minute partial failure)  It should be noted A11 was the only mission to that time to employ deflectors. It would interesting to know how some of these prior (less significant) anomalies would have had on a ship with deflectors. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730017174.pdf

Merry Christmas

Define 'significant'.

Can you please explain how post-mission reports that identify issues  that were corrected during the missions somehow means that the missions didn't happen?


For that matter, if the malfunctions were real, does that not also means that the missions on which they happened were real?  Or are you saying that real malfunctions happened on fake missions? 


That's like saying that the Lord of the Rings is fiction, but that Frodo really did lose a finger on Mount Doom.