Author Topic: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery  (Read 119629 times)

Offline Abaddon

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #120 on: June 03, 2019, 11:07:44 AM »
Lest anyone forget, this is the very same Derek K. Willis who came up with the Apollo 17 "fender mystery".

https://www.aulis.com/rover_fenders.htm

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #121 on: June 03, 2019, 11:16:06 AM »
Lest anyone forget, this is the very same Derek K. Willis who came up with the Apollo 17 "fender mystery".

https://www.aulis.com/rover_fenders.htm


But not the footnotes. They were someone else's apparently. He may or may not believe those.

Offline bknight

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #122 on: June 03, 2019, 11:37:08 AM »
Derek:
In spite of you saying you would not answer my questions instead sticking to the dust on the S3 lander and A12, you continue to let your hoax beliefs spill out to the audience.
So again which Apollo missions were faked.  Why were they faked?  How were those missions faked.  Where were those missions faked?  Ah I see you have answered that one, the big hangar at San Diego.  ::)

Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
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Offline mako88sb

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #123 on: June 03, 2019, 12:11:28 PM »
In the scenario I suggest, both answers could be possible. If the photographs of the astronauts and the Surveyor were taken in a studio, then the dust on the pads could have been kicked up, or put there by a whistle-blower.

Which reminds me of the often expressed opinion by hoax believers that a similar, Manhattan Project compartmentalization style security system, was employed for the Apollo project that kept only the ones in the need to know fully aware of what was going on. Quite the contrast between a top secret military project that kept even vice president Truman out of the loop vs a project like Apollo that was as publicly open as possible. Yet despite all the USA's attempts to keep the A-bomb project under wraps Russia still managed to get key information from people in the right places to provide them enough info that they developed their own bomb by Aug 1949, much sooner then the USA expected. It even looked a lot like the "Fat Man" one used on Nagasaki. You seriously expect us to believe that in the past 50 years since the landings were supposedly staged, nobody has come forward with insider information or definitive proof? Yes, according to you, the big grand reveal is supposed to happen for the 50th anniversary. Sorry, but as others have mentioned, this just defies credibility and is counter to basic human behavior.

Offline AtomicDog

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #124 on: June 03, 2019, 12:19:12 PM »
Lest anyone forget, this is the very same Derek K. Willis who came up with the Apollo 17 "fender mystery".

https://www.aulis.com/rover_fenders.htm


But not the footnotes. They were someone else's apparently. He may or may not believe those.

The rover fender in the Smithsonian photo is rotated 90° from the one in AS17-137-20979. You can tell by the small piece of tape sticking out from under the vertical tape stripe near where the vertical and horizontal tape stripes cross.
And since the far side of the fender cannot been seen clearly in either photo, the tape edge is a clear indicator that it is the same fender.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 12:24:18 PM by AtomicDog »
"There is no belief, however foolish, that will not gather its faithful adherents who will defend it to the death." - Isaac Asimov

Offline mako88sb

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #125 on: June 03, 2019, 12:50:14 PM »
Lest anyone forget, this is the very same Derek K. Willis who came up with the Apollo 17 "fender mystery".

https://www.aulis.com/rover_fenders.htm

Just had a look at that. I'm not so familiar with the AP 15 & AP 16 LR fender issues but I'm assuming they weren't enough of a problem to require spending valuable time attempting to fix them. If that's not the case, you would think he would have said so in the article instead of merely pointing out how suspicious it was that they only fixed the one used for AP 17. 

Offline bknight

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #126 on: June 03, 2019, 01:05:46 PM »
Lest anyone forget, this is the very same Derek K. Willis who came up with the Apollo 17 "fender mystery".

https://www.aulis.com/rover_fenders.htm

Just had a look at that. I'm not so familiar with the AP 15 & AP 16 LR fender issues but I'm assuming they weren't enough of a problem to require spending valuable time attempting to fix them. If that's not the case, you would think he would have said so in the article instead of merely pointing out how suspicious it was that they only fixed the one used for AP 17.
"If I don't understand it", or "If it looks odd", or "If I can't explain it" then it is fake.  But don't forget "If I ran the zoo".
Works every time, just like the OP "anomalies".  Those don't exist either except in the minds of our current hoaxer.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline mako88sb

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #127 on: June 03, 2019, 01:38:23 PM »
Lest anyone forget, this is the very same Derek K. Willis who came up with the Apollo 17 "fender mystery".

https://www.aulis.com/rover_fenders.htm

Just had a look at that. I'm not so familiar with the AP 15 & AP 16 LR fender issues but I'm assuming they weren't enough of a problem to require spending valuable time attempting to fix them. If that's not the case, you would think he would have said so in the article instead of merely pointing out how suspicious it was that they only fixed the one used for AP 17.
"If I don't understand it", or "If it looks odd", or "If I can't explain it" then it is fake.  But don't forget "If I ran the zoo".
Works every time, just like the OP "anomalies".  Those don't exist either except in the minds of our current hoaxer.

I'm not sure what to make of him. He wrote a short story about a Chinese Lunar EVA that went wrong that seems interesting despite it only getting limited mixed reviews plus he claims that AP 14, AP 15 & AP 16 are legit. Yet as you say, thinks that supposed anomalies that he can't explain away justify the conclusion that AP 11, AP 12 & AP 17 are fake. Pretty strange behavior.

Offline Abaddon

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #128 on: June 03, 2019, 01:55:36 PM »
Is questioning my qualifications, is this the start of the ad hominems? Well, I have a degree in physics, though fluid mechanics was in no way a specialty.
By and large, such qualifications are taken at face value here.

But when you start to claim on foot of such so-called expertise that 1+1= a telletubbie, We would all be insane to just accept it at that point. And that is the point you have reached.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #129 on: June 03, 2019, 01:56:43 PM »
Lest anyone forget, this is the very same Derek K. Willis who came up with the Apollo 17 "fender mystery".

https://www.aulis.com/rover_fenders.htm

Just had a look at that. I'm not so familiar with the AP 15 & AP 16 LR fender issues but I'm assuming they weren't enough of a problem to require spending valuable time attempting to fix them. If that's not the case, you would think he would have said so in the article instead of merely pointing out how suspicious it was that they only fixed the one used for AP 17.
"If I don't understand it", or "If it looks odd", or "If I can't explain it" then it is fake.  But don't forget "If I ran the zoo".
Works every time, just like the OP "anomalies".  Those don't exist either except in the minds of our current hoaxer.

I'm not sure what to make of him. He wrote a short story about a Chinese Lunar EVA that went wrong that seems interesting despite it only getting limited mixed reviews plus he claims that AP 14, AP 15 & AP 16 are legit. Yet as you say, thinks that supposed anomalies that he can't explain away justify the conclusion that AP 11, AP 12 & AP 17 are fake. Pretty strange behavior.

His stating that A14-16 are genuine was pretty much with the caveat "but only because I haven't found anything wrong with them yet". I'm pretty sure he'll be doing his best to find some insignificant micro-detail on which to hang a flimsy premise. His book isn't called "Faking some of Apollo".

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #130 on: June 03, 2019, 03:01:30 PM »
Well, it's "next week."  As promised, I will refrain from further specific comment on the main thread topic until I've read Derek's article with sufficient care and study.  Late last week one of my clients had something unexpected come up so I've had some unplanned additions to the normal workload.  Hopefully we can wrap that up this week and free my time up for a focused examination.

However, this I can address briefly without needing to refer to the article or any specific claim.

You might consider the claims that some of the Apollo missions were faked to be extraordinary, but I don't.

But is your personal judgment the appropriate standard for that determination?  The maxim, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof," speaks to the very nature of proof.  And the process of proof is an exercise whereby one party attempts to convince another of something that he doesn't already believe.  Therefore the receiving party's standard of proof is not irrelevant.

If Tom undertakes to prove something to Dick, he does so with the presumption that Dick doesn't already believe it.  If Dick already does, then it doesn't matter whether Tom could have mustered a whole regiment of facts in his favor and marshaled them with unassailable logic; people rarely belabor the reasons why they agree.  But if Tom must convince Dick, then the basis of Dick's current belief and the standard Dick proposes for conviction otherwise are operative conditions.  It doesn't matter whether Tom thinks his claim is not extraordinary if Dick thinks it is, if Dick can give good reasons for considering it extraordinary, and if Tom has agreed to attempt to convince Dick.  Tom doesn't get to insist Dick lower his standard.  He doesn't get to reverse the burden of proof, saddling Dick with having to overcome a hidden premise that his present beliefs are ill-founded. 

The degree to which a proposition is extraordinary is the degree to which it is implausible on its face.  And if you're trying to convince somebody, it is the degree to which those people find a proposition implausible on its face that you have to deal with.  Your argument may eventually follow the path of showing why their skepticism is irrational, based on unsound logic or a poor comprehension of the facts.  But that's still something you have to show by your affirmative dissection of that rationale.  If you insist that your own personal thermostat is what should set the expectations of the argument for them, that's a rhetorical non-starter.  If you want to convince me that your argument has merit, you must address what I consider to be extraordinary, and you must be prepared to tangle with my standard of proof.

Off the top of my head I can name aerospace engineering, astrodynamics, control systems, civil engineering, astrophysics, geology, and planetary science as the foremost sciences that are intimately familiar with the Apollo record and accept the Apollo missions unanimously as authentic history and technology.  Much subsequent science in these fields has been predicated on it, not simply idly accepting it but delving deeply into it.

Now in any scientific endeavor -- any exercise involving people, for that matter -- you will always have isolated incidents of mismanagement, misappropriate, misfeasance, concealment, even outright fraud.  Professional and academic science considers accusations of scientific malfeasance to be extraordinary, and to require extraordinary proof.  This is because it happens so infrequently, as opposed to innocent errors, normal scientific uncertainty, and so forth.  My point is that science is far from perfect or infallible, but accusations of outright fraud are still considered extraordinary enough to impose a prodigious burden of proof on the accuser.

The degree of malfeasance you're proposing is colossal.  You're accusing the major practitioners of several giant industries -- including principals such as Max Faget, with long and illustrious prior accomplishments -- of wholesale fraud, in connection with public officials, to the tune of tens of billions of dollars and immense impact on the scientific and engineering communities.  And you're accusing the follow-on sciences either of being complicit in the fraud, or of failing in due diligence.

How can that possibly not constitute an extraordinary claim in the eyes of the people you're trying to convince?

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In the past I would have, but not now.

What would you give as the reason for having relaxed your standard?
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline mako88sb

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #131 on: June 03, 2019, 04:28:03 PM »
Lest anyone forget, this is the very same Derek K. Willis who came up with the Apollo 17 "fender mystery".

https://www.aulis.com/rover_fenders.htm

Just had a look at that. I'm not so familiar with the AP 15 & AP 16 LR fender issues but I'm assuming they weren't enough of a problem to require spending valuable time attempting to fix them. If that's not the case, you would think he would have said so in the article instead of merely pointing out how suspicious it was that they only fixed the one used for AP 17.
"If I don't understand it", or "If it looks odd", or "If I can't explain it" then it is fake.  But don't forget "If I ran the zoo".
Works every time, just like the OP "anomalies".  Those don't exist either except in the minds of our current hoaxer.

I'm not sure what to make of him. He wrote a short story about a Chinese Lunar EVA that went wrong that seems interesting despite it only getting limited mixed reviews plus he claims that AP 14, AP 15 & AP 16 are legit. Yet as you say, thinks that supposed anomalies that he can't explain away justify the conclusion that AP 11, AP 12 & AP 17 are fake. Pretty strange behavior.

His stating that A14-16 are genuine was pretty much with the caveat "but only because I haven't found anything wrong with them yet". I'm pretty sure he'll be doing his best to find some insignificant micro-detail on which to hang a flimsy premise. His book isn't called "Faking some of Apollo".

Good point. I had a look at this Scott Henderson's link that he refers to regarding the LR's all having the same wheel grease leak. Good grief. This guy is just as bad as Hunchedbacked with what he see's hidden in plain site that supposedly is automobiles covered up to look like boulders.



Offline bknight

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #132 on: June 03, 2019, 04:39:47 PM »
Lest anyone forget, this is the very same Derek K. Willis who came up with the Apollo 17 "fender mystery".

https://www.aulis.com/rover_fenders.htm

Just had a look at that. I'm not so familiar with the AP 15 & AP 16 LR fender issues but I'm assuming they weren't enough of a problem to require spending valuable time attempting to fix them. If that's not the case, you would think he would have said so in the article instead of merely pointing out how suspicious it was that they only fixed the one used for AP 17.
"If I don't understand it", or "If it looks odd", or "If I can't explain it" then it is fake.  But don't forget "If I ran the zoo".
Works every time, just like the OP "anomalies".  Those don't exist either except in the minds of our current hoaxer.

I'm not sure what to make of him. He wrote a short story about a Chinese Lunar EVA that went wrong that seems interesting despite it only getting limited mixed reviews plus he claims that AP 14, AP 15 & AP 16 are legit. Yet as you say, thinks that supposed anomalies that he can't explain away justify the conclusion that AP 11, AP 12 & AP 17 are fake. Pretty strange behavior.

His stating that A14-16 are genuine was pretty much with the caveat "but only because I haven't found anything wrong with them yet". I'm pretty sure he'll be doing his best to find some insignificant micro-detail on which to hang a flimsy premise. His book isn't called "Faking some of Apollo".

Good point. I had a look at this Scott Henderson's link that he refers to regarding the LR's all having the same wheel grease leak. Good grief. This guy is just as bad as Hunchedbacked with what he see's hidden in plain site that supposedly is automobiles covered up to look like boulders.
What was his conclusion of the wheel leaks?  Did all three suffer the same/similar issue?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline mako88sb

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #133 on: June 03, 2019, 04:48:18 PM »

What was his conclusion of the wheel leaks?  Did all three suffer the same/similar issue?

No. More like the same LR was used for all 3 missions so yeah, like you said, no doubt that's enough to knock AP-15 & AP-16 into the fake category.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 12 and the Surveyor 3 Mystery
« Reply #134 on: June 03, 2019, 04:50:22 PM »
Lest anyone forget, this is the very same Derek K. Willis who came up with the Apollo 17 "fender mystery".

https://www.aulis.com/rover_fenders.htm

I presume that this is the same guy?
http://conspiracywiki.com/author/conspiracy/

If so, then a bad case* of crank magnetism. We've nearly got the full house of crank "theories".....NWO, European federal super-state, the Bilderburg Group, HAARP mind-control...we're just missing some lizard eyeball-licking. ::)



*Is there any other kind?
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov