Author Topic: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?  (Read 128743 times)

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2012, 05:18:35 AM »
Gillianren, it is rather presumptious of you to state categorically that non-believers do not understand scientific prinicples per se.

That's a comment from experience, not presumption. I have been discussing this subject for over a decade now and I have yet to come across a hoax believer who did understand the science. It would perhaps be more precise to say they did not understand the science to the required level, nor how to apply the principles they presumably were taught in school.
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Offline Glom

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2012, 06:06:14 AM »
Gillianren, it is rather presumptious of you to state categorically that non-believers do not understand scientific prinicples per se.

I have been discussing this subject for over a decade now and I have yet to come across a hoax believer who did understand the science.

Me too.  I just realised that last week, it was exactly 10 years since I joined the then BABB.  So I've been discussing this subject for over a decade too.  And I also have never come across a hoax believer who was particularly scientifically literate, at least not an intransigent.

Offline ChrLz

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2012, 08:38:49 AM »
Edwardwb1001, why don't you simply cut to the chase?

I presume you have a special area of interest, backed up by lots of knowledge and experinece - it would be rather embarrassing to turn up here with supposedly 'new' claims and then post either very OLD and long debunked rubbish, or point out 'anomalies' that show you simply don't understand the topic at all.

The dust 'issue' raised in the other thread is, sadly, in both categories.

So rather than waste time with discussions about whether or not the historical record is mainstream accepted or not (it is..), or whether it is appropriate to call hoax believers 'deniers' (it is..), just .. get on with it.
 

Offline twik

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2012, 09:24:53 AM »
Nomuse, you do yourself no favours by referring to hoax believers as 'deniers' - nevertheless, disbelievers would level the same accusations at you. Another term which believers use, often with no justification, is that of 'liar'. This seems to be an easy copout. I, in turn, have noticed that believers have not always answered my questions (some have been unique - not anything which Sibrel, Rene et al. have concocted). 

I'm not sure why you consider "denier" a slur - after all, your position denies that the moon landings took place (at least as declared). That is in no way the same as "liar", which, by the way, is a slur that hoax proponents are quite fond of using. Certainly I've never seen a moon landing proponent attack hoax believers by calling them "paid shills", as the pro-hoax people do on a regular basis.

As far as not answering your questions, it would help if you got on and actually asked some, instead of telling us what great questions you have yet to come. It's starting to sound like "all preview, no movie".

Further, with regards to your understanding of science - there was quite a long stretch in your other thread where you appeared to misunderstand, or misuse, the word "float", as well as appearing to believe that dust will billow as an intrinsic property, even in the absence of an atmosphere. If people take this to mean that you do not understand basic scientific principles, I cannot consider it to be their fault.

Offline raven

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #79 on: October 10, 2012, 06:11:31 PM »
Gillianren, it is rather presumptious of you to state categorically that non-believers do not understand scientific prinicples per se.

That's a comment from experience, not presumption. I have been discussing this subject for over a decade now and I have yet to come across a hoax believer who did understand the science. It would perhaps be more precise to say they did not understand the science to the required level, nor how to apply the principles they presumably were taught in school.
Certainly not the science of Apollo, though people can potentially have expertise in some areas and and have major blind spots in others.
Though, in general, I agree, it's not presumptuous at all.

Offline Edwardwb1001

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #80 on: October 10, 2012, 07:51:48 PM »
This is rather amusing. I do have many of you in a tizz. Andromeda and ChrLz, it's not for either of you to tell me when I should post any questions. I said I have a number to post, and I will - in my time - not when you demand it. Both of you are bordering on being obnoxious. I'm really not bothered in the slightest whether you think I am wasting time, or not. Don't read any of my posts if you are dissatisfied with the manner in which I am conducting my tenure. 

Unlike yourselves, although I am very interested in the Apollo programme, my life does not revolve around it. I did not say, incidentally, that each and every question/statement would be earth-shattering and hitherto unheard of.  I do have some which I have not seen elsewhere. Again, don't badger me to post - I will, often enough.  I already spend large amounts of time on these forums.

Andromeda, it is not for you to tell me what to do, or what not to do. You state that 'I've already tried to insult three established members'. I usually return like for like. After my very first post, which was not contentious in any way, I had certain members replying in a rather cocky, know-it-all fashion.

The attempt at belittlement which a number of members openly display does the Apollo cause no favours.  It unneccesarily riles hoax believers, and is certainly not conducive to winning any over.  I suggest less of a superior attitude on the part of many members (even if certain members are indeed bona fide physicists).  No regular members will agree with the following statement, but it seems that some are competing with others in their professed intellectual ability. As a new member, this is readily apparent. 

Andromeda, you ask whether I will accept answers. I will accept answers - if they adequately answer the questions. Andromeda, twik and ChrLz, if you have the Apollo programme at heart, I suggest desisting from your belligerent attitude - if you would like to add a current disbeliever to the ranks of believers.

Offline gillianren

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #81 on: October 10, 2012, 07:55:54 PM »
Oh, goodness, I can't compete with Jay when it comes to Apollo.  Few people can.  People who are ready and willing to learn soon discover that, while there are things Jay doesn't know about Apollo, there aren't a heck of a lot of them.  And he's far from the only expert around here.

In all sincerity, let me ask.  What would convince you that Apollo was real?  You don't believe the engineers who worked on it and the engineers who have used the Apollo evidence over the last few decades.  You don't believe the geologists from many countries who have studied the Apollo samples.  You don't believe the amateurs who tracked the Apollo missions with no US government funding.  You don't believe the Soviet Union, which accepted the facts right away.  You don't believe the special effects people, who still can't adequately repeat the hours upon hours of Apollo footage.  You don't believe the photographic experts, who tell you that the pictures are genuine.  You don't believe the astronauts.

We are being dismissive?
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Offline cos

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2012, 08:09:46 PM »

In all sincerity, let me ask.  What would convince you that Apollo was real?  You don't believe the engineers who worked on it and the engineers who have used the Apollo evidence over the last few decades.  You don't believe the geologists from many countries who have studied the Apollo samples.  You don't believe the amateurs who tracked the Apollo missions with no US government funding.  You don't believe the Soviet Union, which accepted the facts right away.  You don't believe the special effects people, who still can't adequately repeat the hours upon hours of Apollo footage.  You don't believe the photographic experts, who tell you that the pictures are genuine.  You don't believe the astronauts.

We are being dismissive?

And by extension he believes that even today there are armies of technicians fabricating the data from the Lunar Research Orbiter, which clearly shows all the Apollo sites, hardware and paths walked and driven by the astronauts.  When I was at University I visited Jodrell Bank and the moon landing came up in passing. One of the guys pulled out the track they made of the Eagle as it descended to the surface. They even spotted it gain altitude as Neil Armstrong took over to avoid landing in a boulder field. I suppose (in his book) they must be liars too.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 08:12:54 PM by cos »

Offline Count Zero

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #83 on: October 10, 2012, 09:18:42 PM »
5 paragraphs, 356 words.  For me, this would have taken ~15 - 20 minutes to type, depending on how much time I spent wrestling with the prose.

How many questions could Edward have asked if he had not spent this effort on writing about his limited time?

This is rather amusing. I do have many of you in a tizz. Andromeda and ChrLz, it's not for either of you to tell me when I should post any questions. I said I have a number to post, and I will - in my time - not when you demand it. Both of you are bordering on being obnoxious. I'm really not bothered in the slightest whether you think I am wasting time, or not. Don't read any of my posts if you are dissatisfied with the manner in which I am conducting my tenure. 

Unlike yourselves, although I am very interested in the Apollo programme, my life does not revolve around it. I did not say, incidentally, that each and every question/statement would be earth-shattering and hitherto unheard of.  I do have some which I have not seen elsewhere. Again, don't badger me to post - I will, often enough.  I already spend large amounts of time on these forums.

Andromeda, it is not for you to tell me what to do, or what not to do. You state that 'I've already tried to insult three established members'. I usually return like for like. After my very first post, which was not contentious in any way, I had certain members replying in a rather cocky, know-it-all fashion.

The attempt at belittlement which a number of members openly display does the Apollo cause no favours.  It unneccesarily riles hoax believers, and is certainly not conducive to winning any over.  I suggest less of a superior attitude on the part of many members (even if certain members are indeed bona fide physicists).  No regular members will agree with the following statement, but it seems that some are competing with others in their professed intellectual ability. As a new member, this is readily apparent. 

Andromeda, you ask whether I will accept answers. I will accept answers - if they adequately answer the questions. Andromeda, twik and ChrLz, if you have the Apollo programme at heart, I suggest desisting from your belligerent attitude - if you would like to add a current disbeliever to the ranks of believers.
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #84 on: October 10, 2012, 09:25:46 PM »
This is rather amusing. I do have many of you in a tizz. Andromeda and ChrLz, it's not for either of you to tell me when I should post any questions. I said I have a number to post, and I will - in my time - not when you demand it. Both of you are bordering on being obnoxious. I'm really not bothered in the slightest whether you think I am wasting time, or not. Don't read any of my posts if you are dissatisfied with the manner in which I am conducting my tenure. 
Well this post confirms my suspension that you are more interested in discussing how you feel mistreated than discussing your thoughts on an Apollo hoax.  Well this section of the forum is for discussing the hoax, so please stay on topic here and take you general conversation to another area. 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 09:33:17 PM by Echnaton »
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Offline cjameshuff

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #85 on: October 10, 2012, 09:51:23 PM »
I am reminded of a poster on BAUT who went by the nick "Let Me Enlighten U". Granted, his was a rather more extreme case, but as his nick implies, he repeatedly claimed to be able to "enlighten" us as to the true nature of the Apollo program. He constantly dodged and distracted to avoid actually putting an argument forth, often making comments about the interest he's getting or the "progress" people were making. Turned out he had nothing, and failed spectacularly at making stuff up on the fly. Not at all a unique case, but one of the more extreme ones I've seen, to the point I rather believe he was actually a troll.

In summary: Edwardwb1001, reminding someone of "Let Me Enlighten U" is a bad thing, and you're doing it. You're the one who said you'd cover these supposed new points over you're next few posts, and you could easily have begun to do so. This is a common behavior among people who have no interest in honest discussion, and it's not at all unreasonable for people to point that out.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #86 on: October 11, 2012, 02:57:13 AM »
This is rather amusing. I do have many of you in a tizz.

And this entire post suggests that's basically all you are interested in.

Understand this: this forum has been here for many years. I have been on it for over a decade now. In that time we have seen countless hoax believers come on and claim they have questions they want answered. Questions they have never seen answered. Questions that for them are the whole basis of their belief that Apollo was fake. And then they don't post them. They post stuff like this, concentrating more on their perceived persecution when we ask them to actually do what they said they would than on the substance of Apollo. When we see this over and over again, yes, it does become irritating, and when we see a new person come along and apparently do exactly the same yes, it sets off alarm bells for us and we react accordingly.

If you want to prove us wrong then pose your questions. So far all you are doing is exactly what we expected to see but hoped we would be wrong about.

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Andromeda and ChrLz, it's not for either of you to tell me when I should post any questions. I said I have a number to post, and I will - in my time - not when you demand it.

Just get on with it. It's boring and nothing we haven't seen before to watch you dance around picking on the regulars here rather than doing what you said you would. You could have posted your questions in the time it took you to write this post, or even added a couple to the end of it. Why won't you?

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Both of you are bordering on being obnoxious.

Stop the attacks on other members and get to the point.

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Unlike yourselves, although I am very interested in the Apollo programme, my life does not revolve around it.

And stop this as well. No-one here has a life that 'revolves around' Apollo. We do this in our free time as you do.

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Andromeda, it is not for you to tell me what to do, or what not to do.

So do what you suggested we do: don't read our posts if you disapprove of the way we reply. If you're here to debate Apollo then debate Apollo. So far you seem to have more time to debate the conduct of people here than to get to the substance of your questions, which unfortunately puts you squarely in the same camp as a whole bunch of other hoax believers who have done nothing but waste our time so they can crow about how badly mistreated they think they were when they go to other forums.

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You state that 'I've already tried to insult three established members'. I usually return like for like. After my very first post, which was not contentious in any way, I had certain members replying in a rather cocky, know-it-all fashion.

Rubbish. You had members respond by suggesting you consider a question that would answer your original qurery: namely, what would the dust 'billow'  or 'float' in on the moon? your question is something we have seen countless time before in the past ten years. There were certainly no responses that have justified some of the comments you have made against us.

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It unneccesarily riles hoax believers, and is certainly not conducive to winning any over.  I suggest less of a superior attitude on the part of many members (even if certain members are indeed bona fide physicists).

Considering the attitudes we have seen from hoax believers, I don't think I feel like being lectured on how to conduct a debate by one, thank you.

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No regular members will agree with the following statement, but it seems that some are competing with others in their professed intellectual ability. As a new member, this is readily apparent.

As a regular member, what is readily apparent to me is that you have come here to rile us and conduct more of a metadiscussion on the way your questions are answered rather than the substance of the answers. That's nothing new, nothing original, and frankly nothing I have any patience for. If you have questions, just get on with posting them. If you don't like the way some people reply, ignore it. After ten years of doing this, I would love to be proved wrong about a hoax believer's attitude. So far you're not convincing me.
 
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Andromeda, you ask whether I will accept answers. I will accept answers - if they adequately answer the questions.

Question: how do you decide if they have adequately answered the question? I have seen this said many times, but on every occasion (and I do mean every occasion) the answers have not been accepted simply because the questioner did not understand them or refused to do the work needed to understand them, or even in some cases refused to do some very simple experiments that would have demonstrated the principles to him quite simply with minimal effort. In short, I have yet to see anyone who says they will accept answers actually accept them. The caveat: 'if they adequately explain' has too often been used as an excuse to move the goalposts in my experience. So yes, that probably does result in a somewhat belligerent response from me. But if you had been asked by a passer by on the street if you'd seen a policemen in the area, and every time you said no you got mugged and had your phone and wallet stolen, wouldn't you be wary of anyone asking you if you'd seen a policeman after a while, even though the person may just want to find one to report a crime rather than with any criminal intent to deprive you of your wallet for the fifteenth time?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 02:59:19 AM by Jason Thompson »
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Andromeda

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #87 on: October 11, 2012, 03:36:25 AM »
*Ticks off "ad hominem attacks"*
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 03:47:15 AM by Andromeda »
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Offline Tedward

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #88 on: October 11, 2012, 04:27:19 AM »
This is rather amusing. I do have many of you in a tizz. Andromeda and ChrLz, it's not for either of you to tell me when I should post any questions. I said I have a number to post, and I will - in my time - not when you demand it.

Excuse the snip. Saves clutter on the screen. All very flowery and prosaic (them contradictory words used this way?), easier to post the questions. I for one am interested to see what is brought to the table. I am not in the same engineering scientificary and education (and prononcification of English) league as many here but my interest is piqued when such questions are dangled. You could stop dangling, I somehow suspect that the usual suspects will be trotted out, nay, I fully expect the usual suspects to be trotted out.

So on the the grand scale of trottery outery what will we have? Shadows? No, too obvious, flag waving.... nah. Too easy. Crater is being addressed, and ignored. Not enough thrust to get off the moon seeing as a huge rocket got it there? No,  lets see, the dust on the footpads has been answered satisfactorily, do I sense some backing off with the previously held notion that one had an unanswerable question yet the knowledge displayed has sundered the questionable notion apart and one is googling away for the nugget of unobtainium?



Edit. Or do I need a haberdashery?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 04:29:10 AM by Tedward »

Offline ChrLz

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #89 on: October 11, 2012, 07:15:01 AM »
It didn't take long for true colours to appear... :D :P

I'm guessing I'm not the only one who has noticed ad-hominem-laden 'ed-one-thousand-and-one' (how positively apt) hasn't conceded a single thing...