Author Topic: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?  (Read 128737 times)

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #210 on: October 22, 2012, 05:05:34 AM »
Armstrong intimates that he saw no stars or planets in cislunar space, whereas Aldrin states that he saw 'millions of stars'. How could this be?   

Armstrong never looked that hard? Aldrin looked through the optics a lot as part of his role on the flight and Armstrong didn't? Aldrin had sharper eyes than Armstrong? Armstrong was answering a technical question about the flight, whereas Aldrin was writing a book for the masses?

Discrepancies like that are commonplace and expected. We don't expect every astronaut to have had the same experience because they all had different things to do during the missions that would result in different personal experiences of the flight.
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Offline Tedward

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #211 on: October 22, 2012, 06:41:04 AM »
When questioned by Partick Moore as to the visibility of stars, Armstrong states that in cislunar space "...the earth is the only visible object other than the sun that can be seen".

Excuse the snip. After this.

Has this not been questioned before? I think that the word you use, "states", is not the correct here, "observes" is probably right. The tone of the question asked and the answer, (available on the web and I have a copy on a DVD), the tone is an observation not a definitive black or white answer it would appear to me.

I would say that is quite clear from the interview that it contains much more than your supposition that you seem to have left out (?), that interview by the way was on public TV and available today. The next word after the last you quote is "although". Wonder where that leads.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #212 on: October 22, 2012, 12:44:36 PM »
Armstrong intimates that he saw no stars or planets in cislunar space, whereas Aldrin states that he saw 'millions of stars'. How could this be?

It's because cherry-picking quotes and trying to manufacture a dilemma out of them has never been a particularly honest or productive way to approach history.  As has been belabored, your new argument is based upon the wrong-headed presumption of narrative consistency, aided by your having ripped each of these statements torn and bleeding from any meaningful context.  Your answer is as it has always been:  whether stars are seen by people in space depends on a number of factors that vary greatly from situation to situation.  There is no One True Answer that covers everyone's experience in all situations, so don't expect your critics to agree that there should be.  Logically speaking, you've foisted a straw man and then tried to disembowel it using a false dilemma.

The Armstrong quote is from a 1970 television interview on Sir Patrick Moore's famous program The Sky at Night.  Here is a fuller context:

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Sir Patrick Moore:  Mr. Armstrong, I do realize that when you were on the Moon you had very little time for gazing upwards.  But could you tell us something about what the sky actually looks like:  the Sun, the Earth, the stars (if any), and so on?"

Neil Armstrong:  The sky is a deep black, uh, when viewed from the Moon as it is when viewed from cislunar space -- the space between the Earth and the Moon.  The, uh, the Earth is the only visible object, other than the Sun, that can be seen, although there have been some reports of seeing planets -- I myself did not see planets from the surface but I suspect they might be visible.

Why do the conspiracy theorists cut off poor Armstrong in mid-sentence like that?  Probably because the rest of his statement completely undermines their false dilemma:  Armstrong clearly states that other crews had different viewing experiences and that he doesn't have a problem with that.  This is the essence of cherry-picking, and it's a very dishonest practice.

Also you misquote him.  Although he mentions "cislunar space," he was clearly asked -- and has clearly given an an answer -- about viewing conditions from the Moon's surface.  As you may be aware, the presence of a brightly-lit lunar surface significantly impairs one's ability to see faint objects such as stars whereas in cislunar space (i.e., from within the spacecraft) one can arrange to limit one's field of view, such as through the navigation optics, to shut out extraneous light sources.

This is what the crews of later missions did.  When I spoke with the Apollo 14 LM crew individually, Ed Mitchell said that he could see stars from the lunar surface only if he walked into the shadow of the LM so as to eliminate the scatter and glare through his helmet visor, and crane his head upward for long enough to shut out the light from the surface and allow his eyes to adjust.  Given the precautions one must take, it is not surprising to me that Armstrong failed to see any stars during his brief and busy EVA while other crews who spent more time and were allowed such leisure activities obtained better observations.

Moving on to Aldrin, you first have to contend with the fact that Magnificent Desolation was overtly co-authored by Ken Abrahams.  So your obvious problem with using popular literature as a source is proving that it's really Aldrin's observation at that point and not Abraham's interpolation.  Magnificent Desolation is mostly about Aldrin's life after NASA, so only the first couple of chapters deal with his astronaut's career.  Chapter 1, from which your quote emerges, is largely fluff that tries to put the Apollo missions in an historical and political context.  In fact, it's a rather dry narrative bereft of much emotional detail, and as such could have been abstracted from any of the already-existing descriptions of the Apollo 11 mission.  Some of the language in the first three chapters, in fact, closely mirrors the post-flight debriefing.  Plus there are a few technical errors.  Hence it is unlikely that Abrahams had to interview Aldrin much, if at all, for the mission narratives and merely prepared them himself from existing source, peppering them with pleasant English to taste.  There is no more personal insight in the first couple of chapters than in any of the dozens of other books written about the Apollo 11 mission, based on prior crew interviews.  Hence it's more likely that the "dotted with millions of stars" is Abraham's embellishment than that it represents an actual reported observation from Aldrin.

Here is the paragraph in question:
Quote
On the way to the moon, we slept only about five hours each night.  Our excitement and adrenaline made sleep elusive; besides, our schedule was full of tasks and preparations.  We constantly monitored our progress, and fired small guidance rockets to check and correct our course.  We also sent back live television broadcasts to give people on Earth a glimpse of our activities inside the spacecraft, such as making a ham-spread sandwich with the bread floating in zero gravity.  We had to coordinate our times with Houston, since there was really no telling day from night in space.  The sun was always shining, yet the sky around us was a constant black blanket dotted with millions of stars.  One thing was certain: with each passing hour, the Earth was growing smaller and the moon was getting larger when we looked out our windows.

What is remarkable about this is that any of the regulars here could have penned a similar (and, in Gillianren's case, probably better) paragraph using only publicly available information about the Apollo 11 mission.  In fact the entire chapter is written that way -- a dispassionate summary of the Apollo mission as a whole.  Only if I were doing it, I would not have written it to imply that firing "small guidance rockets" would have had the ability to "check" the spacecraft's course.  "Correct," yes, as stated, but the author here (almost certainly Abrahams) is writing basic background, not detailed observations.  He already made one inconsequential mistake in the paragraph.  Why not another?  As I said above, there is practically no Aldrin-specific insight in this chapter.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 02:19:25 PM by JayUtah »
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Offline Donnie B.

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #213 on: October 22, 2012, 04:20:04 PM »
Even if an astronaut had perfectly dark-adapted eyes, no glare, and an unobstructed view, he or she could not see "millions of stars" in space.

From Earth's surface under ideal conditions, a person with good eyesight might be able to see a few thousand stars in the visible hemisphere.  There is only moderate atmospheric attenuation of starlight in the visible range, so the number visible in space (in the full sphere) could not be much more than (generously) a few tens of thousands.

Offline gillianren

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #214 on: October 22, 2012, 05:09:00 PM »
Actually, that's one of the things I would have changed if I'd written the passage!
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Offline smartcooky

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #215 on: October 22, 2012, 06:58:27 PM »
Try this...

On a cold, clear, moonless night in the middle of winter, drive to a rural location, well away from city lights, Usually in these conditions the "astronomical seeing" is very good. Turn off the car headlights and get out of the car. Allow a few minutes for "dark adaption". If you have stopped by a road, make sure you face away from the road so that the lights of oncoming cars don't ruin your night vision. Now look up. How many stars do you think you can see? 10,000? 100,000? A million? No, the answer is 1,500 to 2000 at best. In fact, there are only about 6000 stars either bright enough or close enough to Earth to even be potentially visible with the unaided eye.

Now try this...

On a cold, clear moonless night in the middle of winter, drive to your local sports field where teams are holding a practice session under floodlights. The floodlights have to be powerful enough that the grass is very clearly lit, i.e. the brightness you would expect a major sports event would be played under. Now look up. Now look up. How many stars do you think you can see? The answer is very few, probably none. You might see one ot two of the really bright ones; first magnitude stars such as Arcturus, Canopus, Sirius. You will be lucky to see many more.

This last scenario demonstrates the difficulty of seeing stars under less than ideal lighting conditions such as found in cislunar space and on the surface of the moon.

If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline Edwardwb1001

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #216 on: November 03, 2012, 03:16:43 PM »
Answers to my question regarding the image/photo composite on (or linked to) NASA's website range from 'it did not receive NASA's blessing', to 'it is science fiction', to 'the glare of the other astronaut's spacesuit compounded glare on the moon'. Actually, I agree with the point that NASA may well not verify or support every image with which it is associated. Not too sure that one could simply disregard the image/composite as 'science fiction' or imaginings. Also do not think that a spacesuit or even the LM could have caused appreciable or much additional glare. Nevertheless, a number of interesting replies and explanations.   

Offline Edwardwb1001

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #217 on: November 03, 2012, 03:56:06 PM »
Regarding the variance in statements/observations between Armstrong and Aldrin regarding seeing stars in cislunar space, I  agree that astronauts' comments might not always correlate exactly. The two statements however, are at enormous odds with each other. Perhaps Aldrin, (or the biographer) was using 'poetic licence', which would be fair enough in a book recalling years later, his experiences in space.

Offline Laurel

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #218 on: November 03, 2012, 05:36:11 PM »
Also do not think that a spacesuit or even the LM could have caused appreciable or much additional glare.
Why not?
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Offline Trebor

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #219 on: November 03, 2012, 06:15:18 PM »
Not too sure that one could simply disregard the image/composite as 'science fiction' or imaginings.

Actually it is quite easy to disregard the composite image as fiction. Because it is.
That is why it was called a 'composite' image.

Also do not think that a spacesuit or even the LM could have caused appreciable or much additional glare.

Why not?
The LM was highly reflective, and the astronauts were wearing bright white suits.
In direct sunlight both would be very bright.

Offline ka9q

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #220 on: November 03, 2012, 09:19:37 PM »
Also do not think that a spacesuit or even the LM could have caused appreciable or much additional glare.

Why not?

Beta cloth (the external covering of Apollo pressure suits, comprised of Teflon-coated fiberglass) has an absorbance of 0.24 (and an emittance of 0.91). That means it reflects 1-.24 = 76% of the visible light that hits it. The lunar surface, by comparison, has an average albedo of 0.12, i.e., it reflects only 12% of the visible sunlight that hits it, and much of that goes directly back toward the sun due to the "opposition effect". Only 8% is scattered at wider angles, e.g., toward the earth during most of the month and toward objects like the LM or an astronaut when they're off to the side.

This ought to be obvious from thousands of Apollo surface pictures.

The "gold" blankets on the LM descent stage are actually aluminized Kapton (not Mylar), with the aluminum on the rear surface of the top blanket. Kapton has a orange color, which is why the blankets look gold. Different LMs used different blanket designs, but Apollo 11's descent stage used 1/2 mil, 2, mil and 5 mil aluminized Kapton with absorbances of 0.56, 0.79 and 0.93 respectively. So the thickest and darkest of these blankets was still comparable in reflectivity to the lunar surface; the others were considerably brighter.

The LM ascent stage had a variety of coatings, some of which also changed from model to model. Some were dark, others (e.g., chrome-anodized aluminum) were quite reflective.


 

Offline ka9q

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #221 on: November 03, 2012, 11:57:19 PM »
Speaking of composite photos on NASA websites, Youtube user 'awe130' has been having a hissy fit over the Apollo 11 mosaic

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5863-69HR.jpg

Awe130 seems to think it a major scandal that NASA should sponsor such a "fraudulent" photograph on its own website. I really can't see what his problem is, since (as the caption clearly explains) it was contributed as a work of art by a volunteer who combined several other photos, including at least one taken when the LM was still in orbit. It is clearly labeled as to what it is and grouped with the other user-contributed mosaics. It is certainly not presented as an actual, original, untouched mission photo.

I personally think this is one of the most outstanding user-contributed composites on the ALSJ, one that probably captures Neil's subjective view from that location better than any real photo ever could. And I'm really annoyed that those who donate their own time to produce such works, let alone the labor of love that is editing a massive work like the ALSJ, should be subject to such petty and baseless complaints from people who seem to have nothing better than to find fault with the accomplishments of others.



Offline Noldi400

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #222 on: November 04, 2012, 12:46:49 AM »
Quote
Awe130 seems to think it a major scandal...

Sounds like the whisper has grown to a.... um, well, a smaller whisper.
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Offline ka9q

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #223 on: November 04, 2012, 02:27:37 AM »
Awe130 is one of the weirder hoaxers out there. And that's saying a lot -- they each have their own unique and often very colorful personalities.

He constantly uses the first-person plural 'we', yet refuses to say how many people he represents.

To dodge a question he'll say he only debates the Apollo landings -- and then bring up wholly unrelated topics such as TIROS 1, Red Bull Stratos and the ISS.

He claims to be "neutral" and is constantly appealing to "both sides" of the "debate" about the reality of what is probably the best documented engineering project in human history. Yet he constantly talks about his "whisper", as though a whispering campaign were the same thing as an open and honest debate.

He complains about being attacked but sees nothing wrong with "whispering" groundless charges of fraud (and worse) against the 400,000 talented and hardworking people who made Apollo happen.

And so on.

Offline Eventcone

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Re: LRO photos show ascent stage still on the ground?
« Reply #224 on: November 04, 2012, 07:22:06 AM »
Further to the visibility (or not) of stars from various regions in space and from the moon, and while I am considering replies to my earlier question, I'd like to bring up another point.  When questioned by Partick Moore as to the visibility of stars, Armstrong states that in cislunar space "...the earth is the only visible object other than the sun that can be seen". On page 8 of Aldrin's 2009 book 'Magnificent Desolation: The long journey home from the moon' however, he (Aldrin) states the following: "The sun was always shining, yet the sky around us was a constant black blanket, dotted with millions of stars".  Armstrong intimates that he saw no stars or planets in cislunar space, whereas Aldrin states that he saw 'millions of stars'. How could this be?   

Whilst fully endorsing the replies of other posters regarding the use of popularised accounts to critique the technical record, I would also point out that in the BBC Patrick Moore interview from 1970, Armstrong actually states that from the lunar surface "...the earth is the only visible object other than the sun that can be seen". His only reference to cislunar space is to mention that the sky there is also deep black, but he does not specifically mention the visibility of stars in cislunar space. You may infer that this is what he meant but it is not explicit.

During the mission (after passing into the Moon's shadow for the first time) Armstrong did say that stars had been visible only occasionally on the way to the Moon. I think that we may take this comment as a true indication of what Armstrong saw in cislunar space, rather than what you may think he implied in the later Patrick Moore interview.

I think that poster JayUtah was making this same point when he replied to you as follows:

"Also you misquote him.  Although he mentions "cislunar space," he was clearly asked -- and has clearly given an an answer -- about viewing conditions from the Moon's surface.  As you may be aware, the presence of a brightly-lit lunar surface significantly impairs one's ability to see faint objects such as stars whereas in cislunar space (i.e., from within the spacecraft) one can arrange to limit one's field of view, such as through the navigation optics, to shut out extraneous light sources".

« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 07:31:09 AM by Eventcone »