Author Topic: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked  (Read 12886 times)

Offline Mag40

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #180 on: December 10, 2024, 06:16:15 PM »
You will not be starting any new threads until you can prove that you can participate in an honest debate by responding satisfactorily to the responses from the other members.
Please indicate for me what points I left unaddressed for the flag?   

Who presented to us a single comprehensive viable hypothesis to explain all 8 flag movements?

Show me, and I'll congratulate them and concede.  Where is this hypothesis that you claim I am ignoring?
You won't congratulate anyone and you won't concede. Depressurisation moved the flag. Your claim it was a 180 degree movement was bollocks. It was a few degrees, proven by the flag position just before the camera was knocked over by cable being snagged.

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #181 on: December 11, 2024, 01:52:35 AM »
People are still free to read the thread and form their own opinion. They are even free to start a new thread, if they want.

My personal opinion is that you failed to make your case. You did not convince me.
The closing statement holds special power - like a headline.   It's one of the most-read things - the "summary" which you made INACCURATELY and with bias.

I made a strong case.  If it didn't convince you, that's fine.  But your conclusion was that I "didn't address the points" -- which is false.

There were 8 flag movements in 175 seconds.  STILL, no one has put forth a viable scientific hypothesis to explain these all.   

This specific 175 second incident is problematic for Apollogists.   I get it -- it doesn't convince you.   I didn't expect it to convince anyone here.

But for you to close it out with a dishonest summation - is an abuse of your power, and associates dishonesty with Apollogy.

Your sticky thread accuses the HB's of dishonesty - and it's true, MUCH dishonesty reins among the HB's.   But with your abuse of power with a dishonest summation - you are simply the pot calling the kettle black.

I'd like you to undo this summation -- and open it up for a few closing statements, and then freeze it.  I agree, it's best to not let it splinter.  I reached "completion several days ago" - and would have been better to stop it then.

But in the absence of being able to create new threads -- there is NO OTHER PLACE TO TALK ABOUT OTHER STUFF.   My preference is that when someone brings up something new -- create a new post specifically for that one thing...  Keep threads as clean and narrow-scoped as possible -- with exception of a thread like this -- which is intended to be generalized.

Please do the world a service, and make your forums into a place that doesn't operate like the Salem Witch Trials for HB's.  The world will be a better place for it.

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #182 on: December 11, 2024, 02:05:58 AM »
You won't congratulate anyone and you won't concede. Depressurisation moved the flag. Your claim it was a 180 degree movement was bollocks. It was a few degrees, proven by the flag position just before the camera was knocked over by cable being snagged.
I would LOVE to congratulate someone for this hypothesis - because it would be a truly astonishing accomplishment.

You wrote: "Depressurisation moved the flag."

This is far from viable or comprehensive.   You have to establish a viable scenario where it could cause all 8 movements over a 175 second time period.  Otherwise, it's non-viable.

You wrote: "proven by the flag position just before the camera was knocked over by cable being snagged."

Are you saying that during these 175 seconds of 8 motions, that a camera toppled and it's cable was responsible for some of these 8 movements?

If you have a comprehensive viable hypothesis - please present it with specifics including the timing, for EACH movement - to show that you have a viable story.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #183 on: December 11, 2024, 02:08:12 AM »
People are still free to read the thread and form their own opinion. They are even free to start a new thread, if they want.

My personal opinion is that you failed to make your case. You did not convince me.
The closing statement holds special power - like a headline.   It's one of the most-read things - the "summary" which you made INACCURATELY and with bias.

In your opinion.

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I made a strong case.  If it didn't convince you, that's fine.  But your conclusion was that I "didn't address the points" -- which is false.

In your opinion.

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There were 8 flag movements in 175 seconds.  STILL, no one has put forth a viable scientific hypothesis to explain these all.   

Your error is seeing it as 8 separate movements, rather than one continuous movement that the camera position only allows you to see small fractions of. You have repeatedly been given a perfectly reasonable explanation that fits all the available facts.

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This specific 175 second incident is problematic for Apollogists.

No. It isn't.

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  I get it -- it doesn't convince you.   I didn't expect it to convince anyone here.

But for you to close it out with a dishonest summation - is an abuse of your power, and associates dishonesty with Apollogy.

Again, you're assuming you have some form of editorial input to someone else's site.

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Your sticky thread accuses the HB's of dishonesty - and it's true, MUCH dishonesty reins among the HB's.   But with your abuse of power with a dishonest summation - you are simply the pot calling the kettle black.

I'd like you to undo this summation -- and open it up for a few closing statements, and then freeze it.  I agree, it's best to not let it splinter.  I reached "completion several days ago" - and would have been better to stop it then.

But in the absence of being able to create new threads -- there is NO OTHER PLACE TO TALK ABOUT OTHER STUFF.   My preference is that when someone brings up something new -- create a new post specifically for that one thing...  Keep threads as clean and narrow-scoped as possible -- with exception of a thread like this -- which is intended to be generalized.

Please do the world a service, and make your forums into a place that doesn't operate like the Salem Witch Trials for HB's.  The world will be a better place for it.

If you spent as much time making your points and answering the rebuttals made to you as you do whining about zoo policy and drenching threads with hyperbolic self-aggrandisement and hubris, you might get more sympathy. You've had this advice before: get over yourself. Deal with people's criticisms of your arguments. That's what this place is for, not a soap box for adolescent tub thumping.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2024, 02:10:30 AM by onebigmonkey »

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #184 on: December 11, 2024, 02:27:06 AM »
Your error is seeing it as 8 separate movements, rather than one continuous movement that the camera position only allows you to see small fractions of. You have repeatedly been given a perfectly reasonable explanation that fits all the available facts.
The dishonesty built into your own site, presenting a photo that lacks relevance (from 25 yrs earlier) as though it's relevant without indicating the 25 yrs separation - indicates your motivations and values.  You care more about narrative than honesty/integrity.  It seems to me that proving Apollo as real - is your first, middle, last, and only objective.  This doesn't bode well for your cause - why do you need to make use of deception if you are standing on the unabated truth?

If you think you have a viable comprehensive hypothesis for the flags -- spell it out, and be specific.  We witnessed 8 distinct movements, where the top of the flag was always slanted OFF SCREEN, indicating pressure pushing the flag TOWARDS the LM.

So explain it all.. in detail with timing... and then we can include this into the "Apollogist Closing Statement".   So if someone wants "the scoop" on how this all turned out - they can read the summations contained in the final few posts.

Your explanations so far have lacked specificity...   They are vague and generalized.   It's only a short few minute incident -- so this shouldn't take much work.  So let's hear it...




Offline TimberWolfAu

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #185 on: December 11, 2024, 03:06:19 AM »
Your explanations so far have lacked specificity...   They are vague and generalized.   It's only a short few minute incident -- so this shouldn't take much work.  So let's hear it...

Hmmm, can you remind us all here of your specific details on how the flag movement was caused?

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #186 on: December 11, 2024, 03:25:25 AM »
Hmmm, can you remind us all here of your specific details on how the flag movement was caused?
Hypothetically, if there were an atmosphere, the causes are abundant and viable.  For example, if it were inside of a hangar, then Heat/AC could cause a draft.  The Hangar itself may simply not be fully insulated/air-tight, and leaks allow an outside breeze to cause a draft.  Or if doors were opened.  Or if it were filmed outdoors on a calm night, unexpected breezes still happen.

But if it were on the moon, we currently do not have a hypothesis that viably explains all 8 movements witnessed on film.

That's all I am noting here.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #187 on: December 11, 2024, 04:35:09 AM »
Hmmm, can you remind us all here of your specific details on how the flag movement was caused?
Hypothetically, if there were an atmosphere, the causes are abundant and viable.  For example, if it were inside of a hangar, then Heat/AC could cause a draft.  The Hangar itself may simply not be fully insulated/air-tight, and leaks allow an outside breeze to cause a draft.  Or if doors were opened.  Or if it were filmed outdoors on a calm night, unexpected breezes still happen.

Right, let's flip that around then. If you were planning on faking a mission that everyone knows is supposed to be taking place in a vacuum, would you include a huge lightweight piece of fabric that was susceptible to the slightest breeze and make it a prominent part of all the missions? Why not use an alternative, rigid flag, or just consider the flag on the LM sufficient for the patriotic aspect of saluting old glory?

The whole notion fails on logic, which is something you purported to test us on earlier.

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But if it were on the moon, we currently do not have a hypothesis that viably explains all 8 movements witnessed on film.

That's all I am noting here.

No, YOU do not have a hypothesis, and you are resistant to any and all attempts to explain. Your failure to understand is not evidence of fakery.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #188 on: December 11, 2024, 05:47:06 AM »
#1: Right, let's flip that around then. .... The whole notion fails on logic, which is something you purported to test us on earlier.
#2: ... you are resistant to any and all attempts to explain.

#1: Imagine it was faked, and that this "flag waving" was a mistake.  But you witnessed FIRST HAND that these mistakes "didn't hold back 100% mainstream acceptance of Apollo".  Which means your criticisms are wrong -- "it worked".  Clearly they didn't have to worry about being perfect.  When you have a narrative with enough-proof-of-validity (e.g. 90% of Apollo was real), and everyone is celebrating the grand success of mankind, which served as the springboard for "World Peace and Unity" -- who's going to even WANT to be the party-pooper?

It would be like showing up to a funeral, and arguing with the minister when he says that the deceased is "in a better place now".  Nobody wants to do this - and if they did, would anyone say "great point, thank you"?

Back in 1970's there was no internet, no ONLINE social groups, no way to reach out to like-minded folks, nor any way to do easy image/video analysis as we can now.   They didn't plan for the tech that became prevalent post-2000..  It was a "1 showing and done" deal.   No reason to be perfect.


#2: Please show me ANY VIABLE HYPOTHESIS which explains how these 8 movements could have happened on the moon?  Be specific for the entire 175 seconds.


Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #189 on: December 11, 2024, 07:03:34 AM »
#1: Imagine it was faked, and that this "flag waving" was a mistake.

No, this is my point. You want to suggest it was a mistake, but it's a mistake that anyone with a basic level of education could anticipate and avoid. If I want to fake a scene in a vacuum I would not put a flag in there at all. Your argument requires NASA to be simultaneously so clever they can pull off a fraud that hoodwinked the world for decades and so inept they make basic errors like even including a flag, a thing know for 'fluttering in a breeze'.

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It was a "1 showing and done" deal.

Except they stuck the flag in all six missions.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #190 on: December 11, 2024, 07:33:45 AM »
Except they stuck the flag in all six missions.
But the flag was only in a small fraction of the video footage.   They could also have a starched version of the flag which is in use for most of the time.   Of all the technical issues, this would have been one of the easier ones to deal with.  In all 6 missions, there was only a few mess-ups.... AND, most importantly - and predictably -- it didn't stop 100% acceptance of Mainstream...

When Christians believe the Bible, there are inconsistencies that are irreconcilable between the 4 Gospels -- and Mark 16:9-20 - was "added later" (how could it be God's word if it was amended?) - BUT None of this stop Evangelicals from proclaiming the "sweet Gospel of Jesus along with the Inerrant Word of God" -- there's no talking them out of this.  Apollo is a Universalist religion without Hell, that brings Pride, Unity, and Peace to the World -- that's how Nixon sold it off.   At that time -- we really needed this win.

When my dad died of cancer, I was 23 yrs old, and under a lot of stress from every direction.  In this context, I converted to Christian Fundamentalism....  for 6 years, I was a Crazy Head-over-heels Jesus and Bible lover...  Smart as I think I am -- I swallowed the errors of this Book, because there was sweetness in the church that really worked for us.   After 6 years, I fell away, as the weight of "telling people who don't believe as I do are going to Hell" -- really wore on me....  so we fell away, and largely reverted back to Atheism.

Humans are wired to be "Tribal" and also "to believe myths that benefit them".  There's no shame -- it's biology.

In short -- the DoD leaders seemed to realize that this was doable - and that the KEY to success didn't lie in "Perfection of emulating physics" but rather in making sure that Apollo delivered a message and momentum that people really really wanted (and needed?)...   And there was enough "real stuff" to provide the proof, and for the fake parts -- just need to have it be good enough.  Mission accomplished...  It worked 100% .... with the exact same effect as if we had really landed men on the moon.   100% of the Benefits achieved -- money well spent.  Mission success.  Kudos to the Patriots  who did this for us, and protected the legacy by not becoming Traitors.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #191 on: December 11, 2024, 08:08:37 AM »
But the flag was only in a small fraction of the video footage.

The flags are in several hours of video footage over six missions and a fair bit of DAC film as well.

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They could also have a starched version of the flag which is in use for most of the time.

Ah, so a hypothetical extra bit of complexity. And just when was this 'starched flag' supposed to be switched in?

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Of all the technical issues, this would have been one of the easier ones to deal with.

And by far the easiest would be to not have the flag there in the first place. There was a flag on the LM. Erecting the flag took up significant time in every mission. It wasn't necessary and given its extremely high likelihood of giving away the presence of air any halfway competent planner would have abandoned it.

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Apollo is a Universalist religion without Hell

Bollocks. It's an extensively documented historical event that has left physical hardware behind, and that is still within living memory of a significant chunk of the population. It does not compare to religious texts in any way, shape or form.

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At that time -- we really needed this win.

This is another bingo tick, thank you. It fails as a motivator because we get that win by actually going as well. So unless you can prove that going was actually not a possibility, you have no basis for assuming this as motivation for faking it.

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When my dad died of cancer, I was 23 yrs old, and under a lot of stress from every direction.

I am sorry to hear of this, and you have my sympathies for your loss.

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It worked 100% .... with the exact same effect as if we had really landed men on the moon.

Putting the conclusion first again. The effect would have been achieved by actually going, so why didn't they? Why stage a huge lie when the reality was achievable?
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline ApolloEnthusiast

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #192 on: December 11, 2024, 08:32:14 AM »
When Christians believe the Bible...
You've been told several times that the comparison to religion is a bad one, but I'm going to try again, because in actual fact, your hoax ideas have a lot more in common with faith based thought than the Apollo project.

Just as you've concluded that Apollo was faked and have sought evidence to support this idea, faith starts with the conclusion that whatever is in the belief system is true, and accepts anything that supports the beliefs and dismisses anything that doesn't. Believing without proof is seen as a virtue rather than an imperfection, and considered a sign of strong faith to have confidence in spite of no physical evidence.

The Apollo program doesn't rely on faith. There is hard physical evidence, and exhaustive documentation at every step of the way, created and verified by millions of credible witnesses. While there are certainly people who believe it is true because it's what they've learned and not because of any intensive interrogation of the available evidence, the fact is the evidence is available for anyone that wants to see it. This is very different from any religion. No religious leader can provide evidence on demand. They can only tell you the truth as they see it and ask for your trust.

The hoax ideas you have presented are the same. You don't have actual evidence. You have things that don't look right to you. You have have arguments based on asking people to imagine if it were faked. You present places where you speculate that it could have been faked without considering what evidence would be left behind to confirm the hypothesis. You've actually said the words, "the proof is the feasibility", as though the fact that it could have been faked (in your estimation), then that is evidence that it must have been faked. It shouldn't need to be mentioned just how absurd that logic is. You consistently use a tactic common to religious proselytizers, of trying to shift the burden of proof to everyone else. "My religion is real and you can't find anything to prove me wrong." This is the essential nature of all of your threads. You identify some minor piece of minutiae that you believe supports your foregone conclusion and challenge the world to prove it false. Any legitimate challenge to the authenticity of Apollo will present affirmative evidence of fakery.

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When my dad died of cancer, I was 23 yrs old, and under a lot of stress from every direction.  In this context, I converted to Christian Fundamentalism....  for 6 years, I was a Crazy Head-over-heels Jesus and Bible lover...  Smart as I think I am -- I swallowed the errors of this Book, because there was sweetness in the church that really worked for us.
My condolences on your loss, but can you recognize how your history of being logically compromised is potentially a pattern that is being repeated?

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Humans are wired to be "Tribal" and also "to believe myths that benefit them".  There's no shame -- it's biology.
If you understand there is no shame, then perhaps now is the time to swallow your pride and acknowledge that you've been hoodwinked again. Being a member of a small intellectual elite capable of unraveling the most elaborate hoax in human history must certainly be an attractive position for someone who thinks so highly of his intellectual prowess. Are you capable of rising above that benefit and joining the rest of us in the real world?

This is why good science places the conclusion at the end of the process instead of the beginning. It minimizes these human tendencies and better allows people to follow all of the facts to wherever they go, instead of just the ones that confirm their preconceived notions.

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In short -- the DoD leaders seemed to realize that this was doable - and that the KEY to success didn't lie in "Perfection of emulating physics" but rather in making sure that Apollo delivered a message and momentum that people really really wanted (and needed?)...   And there was enough "real stuff" to provide the proof, and for the fake parts -- just need to have it be good enough.  Mission accomplished...  It worked 100% .... with the exact same effect as if we had really landed men on the moon.   100% of the Benefits achieved -- money well spent.  Mission success.  Kudos to the Patriots  who did this for us, and protected the legacy by not becoming Traitors.
This is a great example of the wild speculation that you continue to use without a shred of evidence. Which DoD leaders? Seems to who? How did they realize it without relying on people with expertise to research it for them? Where is the evidence of these feasibility studies? Where was it filmed (not where might it have been filmed, or where do people say it was filmed)? Why 6 missions and dozens of hours of lunar video? If the point was to win the race, why not just fake the winning landing? How did they fake 800+ lbs. of lunar rocks and regolith? If it's the nonsense about "irradiating earth rocks or meteorites", then please duplicate the process to demonstrate.

You don't have evidence, you have a story. A story that you believe without evidence is a lot nearer to religion than people who can construct the story of Apollo on literally millions of data points of evidence.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2024, 08:34:02 AM by ApolloEnthusiast »

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #193 on: December 11, 2024, 08:41:54 AM »
#1: The flags are in several hours of video footage over six missions and a fair bit of DAC film as well.
#2: Ah, so a hypothetical extra bit of complexity. And just when was this 'starched flag' supposed to be switched in?
#3: And by far the easiest would be to not have the flag there in the first place.
#4: I am sorry to hear of this, and you have my sympathies for your loss.
#5: Putting the conclusion first again.
#6: The effect would have been achieved by actually going, so why didn't they? Why stage a huge lie when the reality was achievable?
#1-#3:
Was it 80 hrs of total footage, and only several hours with the flag?  Some MLH theory put the studio all inside, so chance of Draft is minimal...  A11/12 small hanger... A15-17 - bigger for the rover.

The flag itself was already a bit starchy - some images have it "statically wrinkled" -- stuck in a wrinkled state...  so not as flappy as a traditional flag.

Also, Apollo's central theme/motivator was Nationalism -- "America!" -- having the flag was worth this minor worry.   And spending time assembling it was part of what filled the time.

In the end, I'm not seeing it as "unreasonable that they'd include a flag, despite nominal risks of flapping" - which only happened badly this once.  And it had 0% impact on the success of Apollo.

#4: Thank you.  You seem very nice and genuine.  Thank you for that.  It seems in short supply here; and I realize that my entrance set a bad tone.

#5: "Conclusion First" - yes, this is how a Hypothesis works - as part of the process, you test it, to see if it "holds any water".  My hypothesis objective is "testing the viability of the MLH claims" - and my first things to focus on, are the things where, if they faked it -- looks like these might be strong indicators.  In the end, compare the two Hypotheses -- Apollogy vs. MLH - then decide.  Since I currently favor MLH - I'm starting with this top level hypothesis.

#6: I believe the Landing and Ascent to Docking were not possible to do anywhere close to safely.   Very very fragile operations where so many small failures would spell certain death...  You'll note that Apollo's "docking operations" were performed in a matter of minutes -- compared to the hours it takes for the ISS.  This will be the topic of my next Thread, if @LunarOrbit musters up the courage to let me post about it.

Do the members of this forum really value "truth", or only "their truth", while employing administrative powers to enforce their bias?  So far, this place seems like quite the echo chamber.  I'd like to see that change.

Offline najak

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Re: Conclusive Proof the Moon Landings were Faked
« Reply #194 on: December 11, 2024, 08:58:43 AM »
#1: as though the fact that it could have been faked (in your estimation), then that is evidence that it must have been faked

#2: If you understand there is no shame, then perhaps now is the time to swallow your pride and acknowledge that you've been hoodwinked again.  Are you capable of rising above that benefit and joining the rest of us in the real world?

#3: This is why good science places the conclusion at the end of the process instead of the beginning. It minimizes these human tendencies and better allows people to follow all of the facts to wherever they go, instead of just the ones that confirm their preconceived notions.

#4: You don't have evidence, you have a story...

#1: "could be faked == must have been faked".  NOPE.  Not a bit.  The "evidence of fakery is supported by "Apollo breaking physics".  If it were faked, then it means "the films were a magic show" of sorts-- and thus "how they did things" is similar to trying to figure out "how David Copperfield did his tricks"...  We might never know.   But we can be sure he didn't make the Statue of Liberty disappear EVEN if we don't have a good theory for "how he did it".   If any evidence proves "Apollo Broke Physics" -- this is very meaningful to me.   

I have a list -- but @LunarOrbit won't let me finish this list.

#2: I won't be shamed if I get hook-winked, just as I feel no shame about my 6 years of fundamentalism.   We're human -- If I feel shame, then I'd be simultaneously telling others to be shamed -- and this is just wrong/bad.   Same for Apollo - I am "annoyed" by Apollo -- I would much rather "everyone just know the truth" - I honestly have things I'd rather be doing -- but my personality is addictive in nature, and I can't get this wild hair out of my butt.  If I'm wrong, I want to know QUICKLY.  I don't really care much about Apollo otherwise... just that if it were faked, then I HATE what Google, YT, FB, etc have done to soft-suppress the truth, by classifying this Lie as "Truth" and suppressing every effort to expose it.  This part pisses me off (and IMO, should piss off everyone, because Google shouldn't be soft-censoring, acting like a "tool for defining truth" - this is dangerously useful to govt).  Plus I believe my efforts might be honoring the memory of Thomas Baron, and the other whistleblowers who were dismissed and became "nobodies".

#3: "Good Science" has MANY steps.  One of them is to "Test your hypotheses" -- see if it holds water.   So I'm trying to dig through all of the things that I believe might be "smoking guns evidence that Apollo Broke Physics", as well as the Circumstantial evidence.   And toss out the Crap arguments...   In order to decipher good arguments from crap ones -- they've got to be tested.

For example, I used to think that the "LM couldn't have taken off any faster because that would break the Law of Conservation of Energy" -- had I not presented this argument here, I'd have remained under this erroneous belief.

#4: "No evidence just a story.." -- I believe the 8 Unexplained Flag motions are significant evidence.  As well as the A12 Flinging dish.  And maybe (verdict still out) --- the Lunar Ascent being 2x+ too fast....

At any point, these each could be debunked.   So far, I personally am not seeing it.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2024, 09:01:29 AM by najak »