Author Topic: Telematry Data  (Read 8820 times)

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Telematry Data
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2024, 01:07:50 PM »
For the most part, the telemetry 'debate' is one where the conspiracy lovers are just demanding something they know doesn't exist.

The goal of conspiracism is to perpetuate the debate and amplify the perceived importance of the conspiracy theorists, not to actually study history. "They didn't keep every scrap of information," is just one of the disingenuous ways this happens where Apollo is concerned.

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It is, in itself, of no use to anyone now. It had a use at the time to give the state of a given element of the missions while it was ongoing. Once those missions were over it was of no use: the data became of purely esoteric interest, so why would anyone need to keep it?

The unspoken premise is that telemetry has general, ongoing historical value. In general, it doesn't. Sure, you preserve a few strips so that people can see how telemetry worked in general fifty years ago. But that doesn't mean you keep the telemetry tapes forever. These are half-inch wide ten-inch spools that come in a square cardboard box that you can label. You need several running at any given time, because each tape can record only a few channels of data. The tape speed is prodigious, much faster than the 3-1/4 or 7-1/2 inches per second of quarter-inch audio tape. The outcome is a jillion tapes for any given mission, which requires an inconveniently large building to carry them around in. Hence you preserve the tapes until the program ends, and the data are in a more stable, convenient format. You preserve one spool so that people fifty years hence can see what they looked like. And you reuse them in a pinch, if new ones won't work in your machines.

TimberWolfAu's PDFs are a much more convenient format for today's audience, and doesn't depend on expensive, unreadable tapes or degradable paper or archival storage buildings and their ongoing expense. But there's simply little or no technical value and no historical value to preserving all these finely measured variables in any form, much less the most unwieldy form.

The sticky wicket is the singular case of Apollo 11. For that mission, you can argue that a portion of the telemetry does have general, ongoing historical value: pristine video images of the lunar surface EVA. Now that premise is also debatable, but it offers support for the simplistic notion that NASA should have cared better for its telemetry. It's one thing to say, "How could NASA have failed to preserve the original telemetry tapes showing Aldrin's PLSS battery current output at 37 minutes into the EVA?" We have the number—it's right there on the photographically preserved strip chart. Therefore it's patently absurd to say the missions can only considered valid if the original (nominally unusable) record has been preserved—one that can only be read by an old, expensive, temperamental, and rare machine, only one working example of which has survived.

But it's another thing to say, "How could NASA have failed to preserve the best picture from Apollo 11 surface television?" That sounds somewhat less absurd. But that answer is that the Apollo 11 video signal was non-telemetry data that was reluctantly convolved with telemetry and therefore (perhaps unwisely) treated the same as telemetry: copy it off the tape as soon as possible and therefore render it into a usable form.

But for non-historian conspiracy theorists, these answers don't suffice.  Such "messy" details as design and operational constraints, human error, and unforeseen circumstances don't factor in. The inclusion of historically interesting information in one mission's telemetry sets up the naïve expectation that telemetry per se is historically important. This then forms a simplistic basis for judging the behavior of people who were acting correctly according to the general case, but in the misguided lay judgment have acted "suspiciously." Such is real history.

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If it did exist, you can bet they would be jumping through all kinds of hoops to try and discredit it and handwave it away.

Quite likely, as they do for all the records we do have. In conspiracy thinking, evidence is either suspiciously missing, evidence of a hoax, or faked. This is not a credible approach to historical evidence, and, of course, why serious historians ignore them ("evidence" that they must be onto something).
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline benparry

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Re: Telematry Data
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2024, 10:56:01 AM »
Interesting. Do you have this data stored locally or is there an online resource

Most of what I have or links to are from random searching, finding something that seems cool, and even accidental discoveries. Then there is the data in the various reports or even what was reported during the missions themselves (such as dosimeter readings).

Like Apollo 15 PLSS telemtry;
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20160014527/downloads/20160014527.pdf

Restoration of data (Apollo 12 dust detector.... how exciting!!);
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20120009885/downloads/20120009885.pdf

And things like heart rates for Apollo 11

Thats fantastic. Just what i was looking for. The telematry is now, probably, the most often commented hoax topic. Its certainly the most popular amongst HB's on FB.

Offline benparry

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Re: Telematry Data
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2024, 10:56:31 AM »
For the most part, the telemetry 'debate' is one where the conspiracy lovers are just demanding something they know doesn't exist.

It is, in itself, of no use to anyone now. It had a use at the time to give the state of a given element of the missions while it was ongoing. Once those missions were over it was of no use: the data became of purely esoteric interest, so why would anyone need to keep it?

If it did exist, you can bet they would be jumping through all kinds of hoops to try and discredit it and handwave it away. Goalposts would be moved faster than a right hook at Sibrel's nose.

Here's a folder containing all kinds of raw data from Apollo experiments.

https://cdaweb.gsfc.nasa.gov/pub/data/apollo/

Fantastic OBM. Again just the ticket

Offline dwight

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Re: Telematry Data
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2025, 06:13:35 PM »
One aspect about the missing telemetry tapes is that not one hoax proponent, prior to the announcement of the tapes in 2009, ever thought to consider the TV data stored on those recordings. I was loosely involved in the tape search, and I know first hand that it was only our core group who were hoping to retrieve these tapes for the TV signal stored within.
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Offline najak

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Re: Telematry Data
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2025, 06:49:21 PM »
One aspect about the missing telemetry tapes is that not one hoax proponent, prior to the announcement of the tapes in 2009, ever thought to consider the TV data stored on those recordings. I was loosely involved in the tape search, and I know first hand that it was only our core group who were hoping to retrieve these tapes for the TV signal stored within.
I'm a rookie, but my interest was for the Video footage that was never released to TV.  As of now, the only SSTV video footage we still have was the footage broadcast publicly.  Where is all of the private footage?  Gone.

Telemetry data, IMO, was less of a concern for me, because they were REQUIRED to produce loads and loads of full mission simulated Telemetry data to use for the Mission Simulations, all the way to the control room.   Simulating #'s was easier than faking a ton more video.

Were they constantly feeding in data from inside the CSM during the entire mission?   What about footage from inside the LM?  I have never heard anyone say just how much SSTV footage was lost along with all of these tapes.

Offline dwight

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Re: Telematry Data
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2025, 06:59:28 PM »
There has been NO "private" SSTV footage lost - meaning what was televised in 1969 has always been available. There was no SSTV from inside the LM, nor the CSM for Apollo 11. The scan-converted video of the Lunar EVA has been stored on videotape and kinescope since 1969. All TV color downlinks from the missions is accounted for, with the expection of LOS during brief points in the timeline, the most notable being the crew statements. CBS holds the complete recording in which you see the signal lost, and where you hear Capcom instruct the crew that TV has been lost. The CBS tapes have color bars at this point of the feed but retain continuous audio. Bart Sibrel has attempted to claim he has footage never intended for the public, yet this material was televised live on CBS.
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Online TimberWolfAu

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Re: Telematry Data
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2025, 07:51:57 PM »
Bart Sibrel has attempted to claim he has footage never intended for the public, yet this material was televised live on CBS.

IIRC, Sibrel also claims he has footage of two separate points during the mission, yet they are actually from the same broadcast, with the start of the second around 2 minutes after the end of the first.

Offline najak

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Re: Telematry Data
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2025, 07:56:08 PM »
There has been NO "private" SSTV footage lost - meaning what was televised in 1969 has always been available. There was no SSTV from inside the LM, nor the CSM for Apollo 11. The scan-converted video of the Lunar EVA has been stored on videotape and kinescope since 1969. All TV color downlinks from the missions is accounted for, with the expection of LOS during brief points in the timeline, the most notable being the crew statements. CBS holds the complete recording in which you see the signal lost, and where you hear Capcom instruct the crew that TV has been lost. The CBS tapes have color bars at this point of the feed but retain continuous audio. Bart Sibrel has attempted to claim he has footage never intended for the public, yet this material was televised live on CBS.
"for A11" -- are you under the impression that only the A11 tapes were lost?  Where are the ones for A12 to A17?

IIRC, Sibrel did have one that starts with "Not for public..." -- I'm STILL looking for this one online.  For a time it was on "Vintage TV" via YouTube, but it's been yanked.  I want to see the ORIGINAL tape footage start to finish with the date/stamped plates.   

Does anyone know where to find this footage again?  I spent 30 minutes looking, and the link I first found from October has been purged.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Telematry Data
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2025, 07:56:39 PM »
Where is all of the private footage?  Gone.

Or, as Dwight says, there never was any to begin with. On what are you basing your suggestion that such footage ever existed in the first place?
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Offline dwight

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Re: Telematry Data
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2025, 07:59:25 PM »
The tapes for Apollo 12 through 17 are held at JSC. The kinescopes are held at NARA. Apollo 12 through 17 did not use SSTV.
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Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Telematry Data
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2025, 08:00:53 PM »
"for A11" -- are you under the impression that only the A11 tapes were lost?  Where are the ones for A12 to A17?

Do you have any basis to claim any other tapes are lost?

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IIRC, Sibrel did have one that starts with "Not for public..."

Yes, but it included material that had been broadcast live. The 'not for public' doesn't mean what he thinks it means.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline najak

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Re: Telematry Data
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2025, 08:06:46 PM »
1. Do you have any basis to claim any other tapes are lost?
2. Yes, but it included material that had been broadcast live. The 'not for public' doesn't mean what he thinks it means.
1. NASA is presenting that only the A11 tapes were lost, right?  Has anyone looked for the other mission tapes?
2. I believe it was "never seen before on live TV" until AFTER he received these, around 2000 time frame.

Although I think Sibrel's interpretation is junkish, IMO, there is some suspicious activity going on here.  If we can find the source footage (again, it being scrubbed seems suspicious) - we could have a better discussion on it.   "A Funny thing" snips it together in deceptive manner... I want the original footage which indicates mission time.

Offline dwight

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Re: Telematry Data
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2025, 08:11:37 PM »
Are you sure you have done your research into the TV recordings? How can you claim there is suspicious activity when you havent even seen the original telecasts?
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Offline najak

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Re: Telematry Data
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2025, 08:11:41 PM »
1. The tapes for Apollo 12 through 17 are held at JSC. The kinescopes are held at NARA.
2. Apollo 12 through 17 did not use SSTV.
1. The NASA report seems to indicate otherwise:
https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/static/history/alsj/a11/Apollo_11_TV_Tapes_Report.pdf

"Aside from a few canisters of Apollo 9 telemetry tapes still stored at the WNRC, the Apollo-era telemetry tapes no longer exist-anywhere."

If this is true, I consider this report itself to be another link in "NASA deception" intentionally trying to make it seem like ONLY A11 tapes were missing, when in truth they are ALL Missing except for a few canisters from A9.


==
2. SSTV? -- Google AI seems to think it was SSTV.  If not SSTV, then what was it?


Offline dwight

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Re: Telematry Data
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2025, 08:15:19 PM »
1. What makes you think the full resolution post-Apollo 11 video is on the telemetry tapes?

2. It was not SSTV, it was sequential color full resolution NTSC (29.97fps) television. Recorded onto 2" tape at JSC.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2025, 08:18:08 PM by dwight »
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