Author Topic: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast  (Read 10856 times)

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #165 on: December 04, 2024, 04:55:58 PM »
You apparently find this topic very interesting...  so why would you be so opposed (scared?) to allow a new thread to cover it?

Because there is no need to do so. You made the claims in this thread, and they can continue to be discussed in this thread. You claim to be able to discern and render judgment on the smoothness of original motion from a film record captured at 6 fps. You seem reluctant to explain how you are able to do that.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Mag40

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #166 on: December 04, 2024, 05:35:01 PM »
Did you actually think you were watching that rendezvous sequence at the original frame rate?
29.97 FPS was the Camera spec, and also preserved in these AM Launches. 

So yes, we have good reason to believe that those who transferred this to the video we see today did so "reliably" and correctly maintaining the original timing.
Yes, he did think he was watching it at the correct frame rate.
No.

You were asked about the rendezvous footage that you say is impossibly jerky. The rendezvous footage was captured on the Maurer 16 mm film camera at 6 fps. Most film-to-video transfers simply copy frame for frame and thus are sped up by a factor of approximately 5.
I know the Rendezvous footages were 6 FPS, which enabled them to film for 15 minutes instead of 3.8 minutes.

That explains why they appear jerky to you. You're seeing the action sped up.
That explains why they appear jerky to you. You're seeing the action sped up.
Correct, this makes them look extra jerky.  But this is a DIFFERENT TOPIC.  I plan to present this to you soon, within context of a dedicated thread.

Errm yes he did suddenly know. Went off to google it and all is well.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #167 on: December 04, 2024, 05:40:27 PM »
Because there is no need to do so. You made the claims in this thread, and they can continue to be discussed in this thread. You claim to be able to discern and render judgment on the smoothness of original motion from a film record captured at 6 fps. You seem reluctant to explain how you are able to do that.
Not reluctant.  It's just off-topic.

So here's my answer for now -- "I don't know what I was talking about, I misspoke." 

However if we start a new thread, I can look into it, to address this ENTIRELY SEPARATE TOPIC.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #168 on: December 04, 2024, 05:44:14 PM »
You're not the moderator. I am. I'm allowing it because it has already been discussed in this thread, including BY YOU the OP.
I've answered it now as "I misspoke, I don't have a conclusion about the smoothness of this motion."

You are not an unbiased moderator.  You are behaving like the master judge presiding over the Salem Witch Trials - with conflicts of vested interest.

I thought you'd want a neutral level-playing field for debate here?  Otherwise, it doesn't bode well for the Apollogists.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #169 on: December 04, 2024, 05:46:55 PM »
Errm yes he did suddenly know. Went off to google it and all is well.
I verified the source 29.97 FPS DURING my analysis.  30 FPS for A16/17 and 15 FPS for A15.   Then for A17 verified the time scaling by comparing it against the associated audio clip.  I wasn't the first to do this -- I simply redid what I've seen others do -- to make sure their presentation was accurate.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #170 on: December 04, 2024, 06:06:02 PM »
So here's my answer for now -- "I don't know what I was talking about, I misspoke."

Then that should have been your answer when it was first brought up, not a procedural tap dance to avoid having to say that.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #171 on: December 04, 2024, 06:30:12 PM »
Then that should have been your answer when it was first brought up, not a procedural tap dance to avoid having to say that.
I concede your point.

Offline beedarko

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #172 on: December 04, 2024, 09:01:34 PM »
  "I don't know what I was talking about, I misspoke." 

Gee, that was easy.  I didn't even have to break a sweat to expose you.

Quote
However if we start a new thread, I can look into it, to address this ENTIRELY SEPARATE TOPIC.

In your new thread, will you provide examples of these 16mm film cameras that shoot Ektachrome at 29.97 fps?  I've never seen one.

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #173 on: December 04, 2024, 10:16:21 PM »
In your new thread, will you provide examples of these 16mm film cameras that shoot Ektachrome at 29.97 fps?  I've never seen one.
29.97 FPS SSTV transmission was used for AM Launch filming - 15, 16, 17.

The 6 FPS Film cameras, were limited to 24 FPS... this was used for the Rendezvous footage, at 6 FPS.

Not sure how you came to understand that I was confused between the FPS rates for the two completely different events.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #174 on: December 04, 2024, 10:22:50 PM »
Not sure how you came to understand that I was confused between the FPS rates for the two completely different events.

Because the claim that the rendezvous footage looks "jerky" has been made many times, always by people who didn't realize the footage was taken at 6 fps and is being viewed at a higher (standard) frame rate. And because when asked about the frame rate, you started talking about the irrelevant 29.97 fps frame rate of the liftoff video. You pretty much stated your confusion out loud. Since you started waffling once you were told the actual frame rate, it's reasonable to conclude you made the same mistake as everyone else who has made the claim you made about the rendezvous footage; then you wisely chose to retract the claim.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2024, 10:24:50 PM by JayUtah »
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #175 on: December 04, 2024, 10:35:02 PM »
Because the claim that the rendezvous footage looks "jerky" has been made many times, always by people who didn't realize the footage was taken at 6 fps and is being viewed at a higher (standard) frame rate. And because when asked about the frame rate, you started talking about the irrelevant 29.97 fps frame rate of the liftoff video. You pretty much stated your confusion out loud. Since you started waffling once you were told the actual frame rate, it's reasonable to conclude you made the same mistake as everyone else who has made the claim you made about the rendezvous footage; then you wisely chose to retract the claim.
Wrong.  Although my original smart buddies (engineering managers at this time, one a huge NASA nerd with the Leggos, shirts, posters) with whom I started this journey BEGAN with this rendezvous footage - and my first impression WAS as you said ...  He corrected me RIGHT OFF THE BAT - "that's 6 FPS x 4!".  So that was corrected over 8 weeks ago, within my first week of obsession.

Offline Mag40

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #176 on: December 05, 2024, 03:04:27 AM »
Did you actually think you were watching that rendezvous sequence at the original frame rate?
29.97 FPS was the Camera spec, and also preserved in these AM Launches. 

So yes, we have good reason to believe that those who transferred this to the video we see today did so "reliably" and correctly maintaining the original timing.
Yes, he did think he was watching it at the correct frame rate.

No.

You were asked about the rendezvous footage that you say is impossibly jerky. The rendezvous footage was captured on the Maurer 16 mm film camera at 6 fps. Most film-to-video transfers simply copy frame for frame and thus are sped up by a factor of approximately 5.
I know the Rendezvous footages were 6 FPS, which enabled them to film for 15 minutes instead of 3.8 minutes.

That explains why they appear jerky to you. You're seeing the action sped up.
That explains why they appear jerky to you. You're seeing the action sped up.
Correct, this makes them look extra jerky.  But this is a DIFFERENT TOPIC.  I plan to present this to you soon, within context of a dedicated thread.

Errm yes he did suddenly know. Went off to google it and all is well.
Because the claim that the rendezvous footage looks "jerky" has been made many times, always by people who didn't realize the footage was taken at 6 fps and is being viewed at a higher (standard) frame rate. And because when asked about the frame rate, you started talking about the irrelevant 29.97 fps frame rate of the liftoff video. You pretty much stated your confusion out loud. Since you started waffling once you were told the actual frame rate, it's reasonable to conclude you made the same mistake as everyone else who has made the claim you made about the rendezvous footage; then you wisely chose to retract the claim.
Wrong.  Although my original smart buddies (engineering managers at this time, one a huge NASA nerd with the Leggos, shirts, posters) with whom I started this journey BEGAN with this rendezvous footage - and my first impression WAS as you said ...  He corrected me RIGHT OFF THE BAT - "that's 6 FPS x 4!".  So that was corrected over 8 weeks ago, within my first week of obsession.
Oh, so turns out he knew all along and was just messing with us.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 03:07:32 AM by Mag40 »

Offline najak

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #177 on: December 05, 2024, 03:35:19 AM »
Oh, so turns out he knew all along and was just messing with us.[/size]
Not "messing with you", I just made a statement based upon an incomplete pre-analysis.  It was a premature statement using a "1 msec fidelity requirement" estimate without appropriate backing.  I do not YET have sufficient grounds for making this statement.   The 6 FPS vs 24 FPS wasn't part of this; that was just someone's assumption that I was unaware.

Are you a nice person in real life?  Has life treated you poorly?  Does insulting me give you a dopamine boost?  Adrenaline?  Do you hate me?

Offline Mag40

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #178 on: December 05, 2024, 03:39:01 AM »
Not "messing with you", I just made a statement based upon an incomplete pre-analysis.  It was a premature statement using a "1 msec fidelity requirement" estimate without appropriate backing.  I do not YET have sufficient grounds for making this statement.   The 6 FPS vs 24 FPS wasn't part of this; that was just someone's assumption that I was unaware.
Yet that doesn't fit with what you subsequently claimed.

Quote
Are you a nice person in real life?  Has life treated you poorly?  Does insulting me give you a dopamine boost?  Adrenaline?  Do you hate me?
Yes, no, no, no and no. If you think that I am insulting you, what does that make your 2 dozen or so arrival statements - crowing about how nobody knew what they were talking about.

Are you a nice person in real life?  Has life treated you poorly?  Does insulting everyone give you a dopamine boost?  Adrenaline?  Do you hate people who disagree with you?

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #179 on: December 05, 2024, 04:01:05 AM »
Thank you for the correction on Apollo 16.  Do you have a reference for this?

Look it up yourself. I don't do homework for conspiracy theorists

Your understanding of "math/tolerances" is just enough to sounds smart while being entirely wrong on your results. Or, giving you benefit of the doubt, you were just rushed, and so moving forward, we'll see how well you respond to discussions of this analysis in more detail.

Nope.

I don't need your benefit of the doubt. My understanding of mathematical tolerances is just fine. I do this sort of stuff for a living, and I have been correct in all of my assessments of your shoddy work.

Trying to measure timings with with an uncertainly of one second over a maximum measurable reference time of three seconds introduces error bars of about ±30%. This is because you have not allowed for digital uncertainty.

When a digital clock reads 10 seconds, the actual value could be as low as 9.5s or as high as 10.4s... a possible error of 0.9 seconds.
When a digital clock reads 13 seconds, the actual value could be as low as 12.5s or as high as 13.4s... a possible error of 0.9 seconds.

therefore, the actual elapsed time could be anywhere between  2.1 seconds (12.5-10.4), and 3.9 seconds (13.4-9.5)
2.1s over a 3 second measurable reference time is 21/3x100 = 70% (-30%)
3.9s over a 3 second  measurable reference time is 3.9/3x100 = 130% (+30%)
Therefore, your error bars are at ± 30%
Q.E.D.

This makes the basis on which you have taken you measurements flawed. When the basis is flawed, any measurements you take are meaningless, and any results you draw from them are therefore also meaningless. The rest of your errors do not really matter. Nonetheless, I will address them.

The 500' vs 300' range changes the "angular error" from this "ignored factor" from 0.14 pixels to 0.3 pixels max.  This makes very little impact on overall analysis.  It remains "mostly negligible" and I excluded it for simplicity, not because I cannot "do the math and correct for it".

The height of the Rover/camera -- also plays a small role here, so we can be off by a considerable amount on estimates, and still have almost no impact on the final analysis results (because if there is angular skew here, then it impacts BOTH the AM Height calculation and the Rise calculation by nearly the same amount!).   This has LESS impact than does my wrong estimation for Apollo 16 camera distance, which was also negligible.

Nope.

1. You don't know what the scan frame error rate is for that camera. Its frame rate was 30fps over approximately 200 lines. I'll let you do the math - if you're as intelligent as you claim, you will have no trouble... Hint: the frames were interlaced, and the raster frequency was 15750Hz... I think. (Dwight would have a better idea about this than me... he literally wrote the book Apollo TV technology)

2. You don't know if the LRV was positioned above or below level of the descent stage landing pads, and I have not found any information about that. It could be five or more metres above or five or more metres below. At a distance of 90 to 158 metres. That is significant and would be extremely difficult to see from the LRV camera

If you are right about the camera being 1m above the ground

LRV is 5m below at 90m, the elevation angle to the top of the Descent stage is +4.6°
LRV is 5m aboveat 90m, the elevation angle to the top of the Descent stage is -1.8°
LRV is 5m below at 158m, the elevation angle to the top of the Descent stage is +2.7°
LRV is 5m below at 158, the elevation angle to the top of the Descent stage is -1.0°

You are trying to measure fractions of a pixel over the vertical height of a video that is barely 200 lines, without taking into account scan frame errors, and without being sure about the height of the camera. These disparities will render your measurements useless.

Your claim of "distortion" (vertical vs. horizontal) - is a good concern that I have not yet accounted for.    Because we're dealing with known geometries here, we can calculate the amount of distortion going on here -- and I will add this to the analysis.   And then will modify the results accordingly.

Good luck with that, because despite years of searching, I have never been able to track down barrel, pincushion or mustache distortion figures for the LRV cameras, and without those, to quote a line from C.K. Stead's 1971 novel "Smith's Dream" (from which Roger Donaldson's 1977 movie "Sleeping Dogs" was adapted... "you're up shit creek in a  barbed-wire canoe"


« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 04:21:43 AM by smartcooky »
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.