Author Topic: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast  (Read 10646 times)

Offline beedarko

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #315 on: December 09, 2024, 12:56:21 AM »

My preliminary conclusion here is that for this context, "Conservation of Energy Law" is not easy to prove because there is an IMMENSE amount of energy in Combustion, and at Launch, < 0.2% of this energy is being transferred into the AM mechanical energy, we'd just need to increase this to 0.3% ..... blah blah blah.

What exactly are you hoping to accomplish with all this pearl-clutching and gesticulation?  Is your best-case scenario a "draw", or have you dreamt up some scenario in which you score an imagined win against the scary, wretched hive of Apollo supporters?

Describe what a victory looks like to you.  Will a Rhode Island-sized gaggle of fence-sitters be converted to Moon Landing Flerfs, or will the ratio remain as-is?  I'm curious why someone like you expends so much energy and time in the weeds defending your wrongthink. 
« Last Edit: December 09, 2024, 12:58:14 AM by beedarko »

Offline smartcooky

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1992
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #316 on: December 09, 2024, 01:12:18 AM »

My preliminary conclusion here is that for this context, "Conservation of Energy Law" is not easy to prove because there is an IMMENSE amount of energy in Combustion, and at Launch, < 0.2% of this energy is being transferred into the AM mechanical energy, we'd just need to increase this to 0.3% ..... blah blah blah.

What exactly are you hoping to accomplish with all this pearl-clutching and gesticulation?  Is your best-case scenario a "draw", or have you dreamt up some scenario in which you score an imagined win against the scary, wretched hive of Apollo supporters?

Describe what a victory looks like to you.  Will a Rhode Island-sized gaggle of fence-sitters be converted to Moon Landing Flerfs, or will the ratio remain as-is?  I'm curious why someone like you expends so much energy and time in the weeds defending your wrongthink. 


He's just playing pigeon chess!
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline beedarko

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 187
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #317 on: December 09, 2024, 01:30:33 AM »
He's just playing pigeon chess!

It's feeling more and more like he's just trying to get a free education at Jay's expense. 

If the guy had any integrity he'd provide his address so Jay could invoice him for tutoring services.

Offline najak

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #318 on: December 09, 2024, 01:41:25 AM »
What exactly are you hoping to accomplish with all this pearl-clutching and gesticulation?  Is your best-case scenario a "draw", or have you dreamt up some scenario in which you score an imagined win against the scary, wretched hive of Apollo supporters?

Describe what a victory looks like to you.  Will a Rhode Island-sized gaggle of fence-sitters be converted to Moon Landing Flerfs, or will the ratio remain as-is?  I'm curious why someone like you expends so much energy and time in the weeds defending your wrongthink.
My recent rants above:  I'm identifying the unproductive nature of what Jay is calling "teaching", but rather is designed to produce "reasons to discredit me later (or now)".   So rather than having real discussions, the focus will be on "but look at a how wrong you were" - which is non-productive to truth - and only productive for posturing later.  So when it happens, I'll have called it out ahead of time.

==
This isn't about "VICTORY for me".  Truth is victory.   If I come to believe the Apollogy - that will be a HUGE VICTORY too -- because it would be for very good reasons.

I've sifted to the bottom of a hundred MLH theories - and the vast majority of them are "flawed".   NOTE - if MLH is true, then these "MLH arguments may be technically true" - but for "debate" they are Non-compelling... but most MLH'ers have no clue.

Based on the fact that there STILL exists no mathematically-backed debunking for the Fast Lunar Launch speeds -- this makes this seem like a likely candidate for "NON-DEBUNKABLE" MLH claims.

I spend time because I have time, and am obsessive about Truth, and HATE the way Google/YT HIDE the good arguments from everyone.  I do not like the system defining "truth" for us like this.

And I still strongly believing that we didn't Land Men on the Moon.  So when I see Google/YT SUPPRESSING this - it pisses me off 100x more.

I assume you are smart enough to tell that my arguments made so far - are "decent/solid" more so than most...   I'm not trying to "win an argument" - I'm trying to establish the viability of what I believe are the strongest MLH claims - to see them CHALLENGED, and mature them, or drop them if they are refuted.

The way this "Launches to Fast" theory is going now -- I'm less certain of the outcome now.  I will NOTE the refutations established here in my document.

My MLH beliefs are genuine.  And the more you allow me to create some new threads, the more you might come to realize my reasons.

Offline najak

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #319 on: December 09, 2024, 01:44:55 AM »
It's feeling more and more like he's just trying to get a free education at Jay's expense. 
I'm dealing in non-debunked MLH claims here.   This "Lunar Launch too Fast" remains non-debunked...  If Jay doesn't want to debunk it, it remains undebunked.

I care very little for the "rocket science" I'm learning now as it presents no gains for me in my life.   Since he "knows it" - and this 40+ year old claim remains undebunked-- ball is in his court for this.

Unless you simply don't care if it remains Undebunked.

I'm only claiming "it's currently undebunked".

If you think I want to Learn Rocket Science at the lowest levels, you haven't been reading my posts.

Offline najak

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #320 on: December 09, 2024, 01:47:30 AM »
He's just playing pigeon chess!
Are you a good aeronautical engineer?  Your maturity level here doesn't reflect it.   Are you young?  old?   Single?  Grumpy?   Or you just like sports - and smack talk?

I'm here with genuine interest, wanting to get to the bottom of the MLH claims for which I genuinely think are "non-debunked".   If you are as smart as you think/say - you should have realized this by now.

Offline Mag40

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 545
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #321 on: December 09, 2024, 01:56:58 AM »
The only thing being debunked here are your credentials as a "good Rocket scientist".

You seem to want to "hide out in complexity" where your true aptitude for good Rocket Science, can remain conceal, mired in mystery..
I know he knows the Rocket Science concepts better - so share them.
If you spent less time doing that above and just took the steps suggested, we could all be out of here for Christmas.

Offline smartcooky

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1992
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #322 on: December 09, 2024, 02:04:28 AM »
Are you a good aeronautical engineer?  Your maturity level here doesn't reflect it.   Are you young?  old?   Single?  Grumpy?   Or you just like sports - and smack talk?

None of your business.

I'm here with genuine interest, wanting to get to the bottom of the MLH claims for which I genuinely think are "non-debunked".   If you are as smart as you think/say - you should have realized this by now.

No you aren't. There's nothing new in any of what you are claiming. We've all seen your sort before, except you're not as good at this as some others we've had here previously. You're more full of wind and piss than a barber's cat. I do not respect you at all, I think you're pretentious, arrogant and a posturer... what the British call a  "poser" or a "prat".

For someone who claims to be here to learn, you are very, very resistant to learning anything. IMO your claim is a lie. You're only here to push your own agenda, raising long, repeatedly debunked claims, and insulting others who won't tell you what you want to hear.

Well, I for one, am not going to play your game any more.   
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline najak

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #323 on: December 09, 2024, 02:13:51 AM »
If you spent less time doing that above and just took the steps suggested, we could all be out of here for Christmas.
You are being nice now.   It looks good on you.

If Jay had corrected my premise regarding the "Law of Conservation of Energy", I would have conceded on that instantly - because it's obvious once he could have pointed out "1 kg of A50 combustion releases 20 MJ; the change in mechanical energy to the AM is only about 100kJ".  This issue would have been dropped immediately by me.

Jay is dragging this out - it takes a lot longer for him to try and question me to death -- than it would to "just provide this FIRST EVER proof" that is lacking in the world.

Or it remains undebunked, as it's always been.

Offline Mag40

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 545
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #324 on: December 09, 2024, 02:31:05 AM »
You are being nice now.   It looks good on you.
Don't do that, it always comes across as patronising. I have no interest in your asides. What doesn't look good on you is your failure to resolve threads. You know which one!

Quote
If Jay had corrected my premise regarding the "Law of Conservation of Energy"
Cobblers. You got the chance and the motivation to work it out for yourself and that is the kind of learning that sticks.

Quote
Jay is dragging this out - it takes a lot longer for him to try and question me to death -- than it would to "just provide this FIRST EVER proof" that is lacking in the world.
YOU are dragging it out. Where's the energy balance?

Quote
Or it remains undebunked, as it's always been.
I haven't yet had the time or inclination to check your document assessments, but did you really use Youtube with god knows what generation of media it is using? Apollo 15 is a narrow view. Apollo 16 has debris everywhere and Apollo 17 has a steady zoom out a split second before launch, your level of accuracy is questionable. I'm sure there is a surge at launch and I've already said what it could relate to. You didn't seen to notice.

Offline najak

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #325 on: December 09, 2024, 04:02:11 AM »
#1: Cobblers. You got the chance and the motivation to work it out for yourself and that is the kind of learning that sticks.
#2: YOU are dragging it out. Where's the energy balance?
#1: Nope.  I spent hours learning something that should have taken seconds, simply because I didn't think I was "missing something easy but vital".  It was a case of: "Oh ooops -- most of the mechanical energy from combustion at launch goes into the Exhaust, not the AM."   This was not about "teaching" but "posturing".

#2: I did -- I asked "what is the Aerozine Combustion energy released?" -- it doesn't seem to be anywhere on the internet that I could find, except Google AI - but without references... so don't trust it.  Finding Hydrazine was easy...  So used that as a placeholder for now --

So simple, for 1 second:
{Combustion Energy released} = {Mechanical Energy change: AM + Exhaust} + {Heat}

40 MJ  =  {AM + 120 kJ} + {Exhaust + 24 MJ!!!} + {Heat = 16 MJ}

So clearly -- AM deviations are not unexplainable via the energy equation.

===
So next step is "Fluid Dynamics" & "Heat/Expansion/Pressure" - to figure out the resulting thrust.

This is where it gets more complex.

The aperture fo the Chamber is 16 SqIn, and the Exit Aperature of the 1.5 deg cant, is 59.3 SqIn

As the AM rises, every inch increases this outflow by 97 sqIn.   So by 1 inch off the ground, we have 156 sqIn exit...  about 9.5x the Chamber Aperature.

I would presume that the pressure in the Nozzle compared to the Combustion Chamber correlates (near linearly?) to the ratio of the apertures.

So starting out, the ratio is 3.6x.    Not sure how quickly the Combustion chamber psia builds up to 120 -- but that's steady state.

The fuel feed line comes in at 170 psia....  so fluctuations in this Combustion Chamber pressure is BAD -- because it can cause Reverb... as high pressure slows the fuel feed rate (I presume due to less pressure differential).   So it would a bad/dangerous design if they didn't manage this well enough to avoid significant reverb (presuming)...

So added to my spreadsheet, tab 3 -- "PT" -- where I calculate the resulting anticipated Pressure Thrust, every 0.1 inch interval as it takes off.

This spreadsheet is lacking and invalid, because it does not account for "Momentum Thrust" or other contributors (if any).... it only calculates Pressure Thrust, and I think my equations have one or more issues.  This was my first pass through.

I understand Fluid Dynamic concepts, but not intimately, and haven't had professional experience with calculating these.  My methods are crude, to give me "estimates/ideas" only.  As such, it would be highly inappropriate for me to create the "real Debunk" here...

But if Jay will do it - I'll learn Fluid Dynamics well enough to check his work, and more importantly, we can farm it around for Peer Review, validation by other Rocket scientists/etc.

I'd think the professionals could simply plug this into a 3D simulation, and have it spit out the predicted results -- Fluid Dynamics Rocket engine CAD, package of some sort.

Something like this:
https://info.thermoanalytics.com/rapid-flow-cfd-software

This is work for an experienced professional.   I'm only here to note the absence of such a proof, even after 40+ years that this claim has stood.

Offline najak

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #326 on: December 09, 2024, 06:30:18 AM »
@JayUTAH - so do you have some professional Fluid Dynamic software to help model this?

I don't know what principles to apply for the various factors and concerns at play here, to do any meaningful calculations.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qYtfrOghTwQ-C3sxMIerEGokdxFqFdM32_NX-TmpELs/edit?usp=sharing

Here the only thing I'm a little confident on is the "expected Pressure Thrust equivalent, but this is based upon a presumption that this pressure is PROPORTIONAL to the equivalent aperture under the AM...  Since this pressure is able to fan out after that, not sure if true fluid dynamic result would approximate this assumption or not.

So my calculation seems to be "the MOST it could be"... I think..  You should be able to confirm this, I hope.

So this calculation shows that at 6 inches off the ground, the extra thrust from this "static pressure" drops below the requires "extra 2.2 m/s^2" to match the observed launch acceleration.

By 1 foot off the ground, Static pressure thrust, drops to 1.1 m/s^2 contribution (only +36%, not +72%)

By 2 feet, it's down to +0.58 m/s^2 contribution... (+19%, vs +72%)

So in short, after 6 inches high - the amount that this added "Static Pressure" can add to acceleration falls below the required thrust maintain the +72% thrust -- and THIS assumes we have full Momentum Thrust of 3 m/s^2 in effect at this 6"...   Not likely with all of the backpressure.

Just from this estimate alone -- I'm not seeing a path forward where this "Static Pressure" is capable of providing the needed +72% thrust beyond the 6" above the ground point (15 centimeters!)

So what helps it to do the other 1.65 meters?

I'll revisit some image analysis soon, to see if sense can be made here.

Offline ApolloEnthusiast

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 82
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #327 on: December 09, 2024, 12:04:39 PM »
If Jay had corrected my premise regarding the "Law of Conservation of Energy"...
Or, putting the accountability where it actually belongs, if you hadn't dug in your heels and insisted that you were right despite being told that you were likely making mistakes, maybe you would have more quickly answered Jay's questions and helped you both figure out where your errors were and more efficiently get to the information you're looking for.

I am a teacher, and one of the challenges of the profession is identifying exactly where in a complex process a student is having a misunderstanding. There are a lot of different ways to reach even the same wrong answer sometimes, and finding the exact issue is an important step toward providing the targeted instruction that will lead the student to the most thorough understanding.


This is work for an experienced professional.   I'm only here to note the absence of such a proof, even after 40+ years that this claim has stood.
Oh really? If you're just noting the alleged* absence of the proof then why did you spend pages belligerently insisting that such a proof is impossible and that Jay is an imposter?

*How certain are you there is no proof? I don't believe you've interrogated your own assumptions about the framework of the problem, and how far beyond Google have you searched for an answer?*

Offline Mag40

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 545
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #328 on: December 09, 2024, 12:55:21 PM »


This is work for an experienced professional.   I'm only here to note the absence of such a proof, even after 40+ years that this claim has stood.
Oh really? If you're just noting the alleged* absence of the proof then why did you spend pages belligerently insisting that such a proof is impossible and that Jay is an imposter?

*How certain are you there is no proof? I don't believe you've interrogated your own assumptions about the framework of the problem, and how far beyond Google have you searched for an answer?*
It's not even google, it's right here, 10 years ago:
https://apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=655.0

Offline smartcooky

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1992
Re: Hoax? - Lunar Launches - Too Fast
« Reply #329 on: December 09, 2024, 02:45:32 PM »


This is work for an experienced professional.   I'm only here to note the absence of such a proof, even after 40+ years that this claim has stood.
Oh really? If you're just noting the alleged* absence of the proof then why did you spend pages belligerently insisting that such a proof is impossible and that Jay is an imposter?

*How certain are you there is no proof? I don't believe you've interrogated your own assumptions about the framework of the problem, and how far beyond Google have you searched for an answer?*
It's not even google, it's right here, 10 years ago:
https://apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=655.0

Specifically, in this post by Bob. B

https://apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=655.msg37834#msg37834

This allegedly "never been debunked in over 40 years" claim being made by najak was comprehensively debunked by Bob B. over 8 years ago, and his wasn't the first time.

The problem with debunking Moon Hoaxtard lies is that it is like playing whack-a-mole. You debunk one lie, they pop up with another lie. You can never kill them, all you can do is keep whacking them over the head until they get bored with being owned and they go away of their own accord.

If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.